{"id":16843,"date":"2026-04-13T13:50:24","date_gmt":"2026-04-13T11:50:24","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/?post_type=resource-hub&#038;p=16843"},"modified":"2026-04-13T13:50:33","modified_gmt":"2026-04-13T11:50:33","slug":"investigative-interviewing-reform-in-practice-ep-19","status":"publish","type":"resource-hub","link":"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/resource-hub\/investigative-interviewing-reform-in-practice-ep-19\/","title":{"rendered":"Investigative interviewing in Finland &#8211; ep.19"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-primary-25-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80);padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30)\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns alignwide are-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-658170e2 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"flex-basis:40%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1200\" height=\"1200\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/13113808\/Episodes-separate-series-LinkedIn-Post.jpg\" alt=\"investigative interviewing in Finland\" class=\"wp-image-16852\" style=\"width:472px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/13113808\/Episodes-separate-series-LinkedIn-Post.jpg 1200w, https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/13113808\/Episodes-separate-series-LinkedIn-Post-300x300.jpg 300w, https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/13113808\/Episodes-separate-series-LinkedIn-Post-1024x1024.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/13113808\/Episodes-separate-series-LinkedIn-Post-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/13113808\/Episodes-separate-series-LinkedIn-Post-768x768.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><strong><mark style=\"background-color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)\" class=\"has-inline-color has-primary-color\">The Long Game Series<\/mark><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h1 class=\"wp-block-heading has-display-small-font-size\" id=\"h-episode-19-memory-matters-finland-s-legal-psychology-revolution\" style=\"line-height:1.2\">Episode 19. Memory Matters: Finland&#8217;s Legal Psychology Revolution<\/h1>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-28f84493 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"flex-basis:100%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify wp-embed-aspect-21-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\" style=\"margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80)\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"Spotify Embed: Memory Matters: Finland&amp;apos;s Legal Psychology Revolution\" style=\"border-radius: 12px\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/0ktKhBeNZ6B8FXFzFIqMrx?si=s0AXfuvVRNCBtoT8DZdw-Q&amp;utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-display-font-size\"><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-884087f6 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80)\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns alignwide is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-cbe57604 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"flex-basis:300px\">\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading is-style-lead\" id=\"h-legal-psychologist-dr-julia-korkman-reveals-why-investigative-interviewing-must-be-built-on-memory-science-and-how-finland-is-using-ai-to-develop-better-practices\">Legal psychologist Dr Julia Korkman reveals why investigative interviewing must be built on memory science &#8211; and how Finland is using AI to develop better practices.\u00a0<\/h2>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>In this episode of Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, host Dr Ivar Fahsing speaks with Dr Julia Korkman, one of the Nordic region&#8217;s most influential legal psychologists and current President of the <a href=\"https:\/\/eapl.eu\/\" type=\"link\" id=\"https:\/\/eapl.eu\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">European Association of Psychology and Law<\/a>, about the critical intersection of memory science, investigative interviewing, and criminal justice reform in Finland and across Europe.\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Julia Korkman opens with a powerful observation: the legal system was built by humans for humans, yet has \u00abfar too little recognition of how humans work.\u00bb Despite memory being the fundamental material that police and justice professionals work with when investigating crimes &#8211; especially crimes against persons &#8211; officers in Finland and many countries worldwide are not required to have any training in how memory functions. This paradox drives much of Ms Korkman&#8217;s work on improving investigative practices through evidence-based approaches grounded in psychological research.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The conversation traces Julia Korkman&#8217;s trajectory into legal psychology, beginning over 20 years ago when she observed how poorly children were being interviewed in Finnish sexual abuse investigations. Witnessing firsthand how inappropriate interviewing techniques with young children could lead to problematic accounts and wrongful conclusions, she recognised investigative interviewing&#8217;s core role in miscarriages of justice. This early exposure shaped her career focus on memory research and improving interview practices to prevent these devastating outcomes for all parties involved.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The episode explores Finland&#8217;s unique legal landscape, including recent Supreme Court decisions showing impressive understanding of how human beings work, suggesting improvement despite ongoing challenges. Julia discusses her research on human trafficking cases involving cross-border victims, examining how remote hearing technology can make proceedings both more pragmatic and more human-friendly when properly implemented with judicial oversight and victim support.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Key Topics Discussed:<\/strong>&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Memory as the fundamental material of criminal investigations<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The paradox: legal systems not based on how humans actually work\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Why memory training should be mandatory for justice professionals\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Investigative interviewing&#8217;s role in miscarriages of justice\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Judicial decision-making: the power of explicit reasoning and writing\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>How requiring written verdicts prevents cognitive biases\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The need for mandatory hypothesis testing in police investigations\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Recent Finnish Supreme Court decisions showing psychological sophistication\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Cross-border investigations: human trafficking and remote hearings\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Recording as catalyst for positive cultural change through \u00abcertification\u00bb\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Following Sweden&#8217;s example: recorded interviews as court evidence\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>AI as potential real-time assistant for improving interview questions\u00a0<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Technology in training and interview assessment\u00a0<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Equipped For Justice &#8211; Supporting ethical, human rights-compliant investigations worldwide<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-primary-25-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--50);padding-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--50)\">\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-about-the-guest\">About the guest<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-28f84493 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading is-style-lead\" id=\"h-dr-julia-korkman\"><strong>Dr. Julia Korkman<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dr Julia Korkman is a leading expert in legal psychology, specialising in investigative interviewing, witness reliability, child protection cases, and factors influencing rape victims&#8217; decisions to report. She co-leads the legal psychology research group at \u00c5bo Akademi University in Finland, where she conducts cutting-edge research on memory, interview techniques, and judicial decision-making.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dr Korkman plays a key role at the European Institute for Crime Prevention and Control (HEUNI), affiliated with the United Nations, where she works to improve victims&#8217; rights, address violence against women, and strengthen criminal justice practices through humane, evidence-based approaches. Since 2023, she has served as President of the European Association of Psychology and Law (EAPL), helping shape research priorities and policy recommendations across Europe.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Her extensive training work with judges, prosecutors, and police officers in Finland, Sweden, and throughout Europe has made her one of the region&#8217;s most influential voices on implementing psychological research findings in legal practice. Her current research includes human trafficking investigations, remote hearing technologies, and AI applications in investigative interviewing.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-6c531013 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-5a30f31b wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-fc54cf0f wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading has-huge-font-size\" id=\"h-watch-and-listen-wherever-you-get-your-podcasts-youtube-link-here\"><a href=\"https:\/\/rss.com\/podcasts\/beyond-a-reasonable-doubt-podcast\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Watch and listen wherever you get your podcasts<\/a> (Youtube link <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/4pXY7BJejOw\" type=\"link\" id=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/4pXY7BJejOw\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">here<\/a>)<\/h2>\n<\/section>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-6c531013 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-6c531013 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-6c531013 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80)\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group alignwide is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-related-products\">Related products<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"align wp-block-site-carousel\" id=\"block-1f991a9101ae673cf3c2a2e8fa5f3ef3\">\n\n<div class=\"swiper\">\n\t<div class=\"swiper-button-prev\"><\/div>\n\t<div class=\"swiper-button-next\"><\/div>\n\t<ul class=\"carousel carousel__container swiper-wrapper\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"carousel__item swiper-slide\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/product\/fixed-recorder\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<figure class=\"carousel__figure\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/18110937\/DSCF0669-1-1024x683.jpg\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/figure>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"carousel__item-content\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"carousel__item-title\">Fixed Recorder<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<p class=\"carousel__item-excerpt\"><p>Fixed HD recorder for high security interview rooms.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"carousel__item swiper-slide\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/product\/portable-recorder\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<figure class=\"carousel__figure\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/05\/18111442\/DSCF0515-scaled-e1718709426242-961x1024.jpg\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/figure>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"carousel__item-content\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"carousel__item-title\">Portable Recorder<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<p class=\"carousel__item-excerpt\"><p>Lightweight, PACE-compliant interview recorder for any setting.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"carousel__item swiper-slide\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/product\/capture\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<figure class=\"carousel__figure\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/22070457\/Mobile_product-1024x1007.jpg\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/figure>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"carousel__item-content\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"carousel__item-title\">Capture<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<p class=\"carousel__item-excerpt\"><p>Mobile app recorder for capturing evidence on the go.\u2028<\/p>\n<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"carousel__item swiper-slide\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/product\/ark-interview-management\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<figure class=\"carousel__figure\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/26094613\/DSCF1093_1-1-scaled-e1719395228933-1024x797.jpg\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/figure>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"carousel__item-content\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"carousel__item-title\">Ark Interview Management<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<p class=\"carousel__item-excerpt\"><p>Receive, monitor, and keep evidence throughout its lifetime.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/ul>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"swiper-pagination\"><\/div>\n\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80)\"><\/section>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group summary has-primary-25-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-1c074333 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--50);padding-right:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--50);padding-left:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30)\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group summary-wrapper has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-transcript\">Transcript<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Guests: Julia Korkman<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Host: Dr Ivar Fahsing<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Recorded: 28 November 2025<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 00:01<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Welcome, Julia Korkman, to our podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 00:04<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thank you so much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 00:04<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m so honoured to have you here, Julia. I have to say to our listeners who don&#8217;t know you that at least in the Nordic region you are quite a famous psychologist within this area. So it&#8217;s a big honour having you here and I&#8217;m so impressed with what you are doing not only in Finland but across Europe.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 00:25<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 00:26<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia, this season of Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, the focus is on implementation of investigative interviewing \u2014 the need for it, what it really is, and why it&#8217;s important, seen from different perspectives and contexts. So may I ask you: what do you think is the ethos of investigative interviewing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 00:54<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There would be so many different points of departure to answer that question. But I think the first and foremost answer would perhaps be that if investigative interviews are done the wrong way, they can lead to quite terrible miscarriages of justice for all involved parties.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>My own trajectory within legal psychology started with observing the way in which children were interviewed in Finland some 20-plus years ago in the investigation of particularly sexual abuse cases, which was really poor. I&#8217;m glad to say it&#8217;s a bit better today, but it&#8217;s still a difficult area. If you interview young children in a way that is not recommendable, you will inevitably end up with problematic accounts that include mistakes and can lead to completely wrongful conclusions. And we know from the large number of cases investigated in the Nordics, in Europe, and globally \u2014 wrongful convictions in which investigative interviewing has a core part to play.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One of my favourite areas of research is memory \u2014 human memory. I can&#8217;t get over how surprising it is that although the legal system was built by human beings for human beings, and the basic material we look at when assessing crimes against persons is memory, these processes have far too little recognition of how humans actually work. In my country, as in many others, police officers and justice professionals are not obliged to have any training in how memory works \u2014 which is extraordinary, given that it is precisely what they work with when investigating crimes and trying to assess whether accounts are credible or reliable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 03:32<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Absolutely. My work lately has been mostly on decision-making, and there is exactly the same issue \u2014 a common assumption that if you get information, you will automatically reach the right conclusion. It&#8217;s interesting to see how little attention is paid to that process, even though when you examine some Supreme Court verdicts there are actually good traditions of decision-making. But that good decision-making doesn&#8217;t seem to be made explicit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 04:10<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think you&#8217;re right. When looking at how judicial decision-making is conducted in many countries, including my own, judges are required to describe how they came to a certain conclusion. I train judges quite a bit here in Finland and also in Sweden, and I&#8217;ve heard many times judges comment on the fact that writing down why you came to a certain conclusion is an efficient measure to prevent the worst kinds of quick and poor decision-making.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I heard one judge say that throughout an entire case he was pretty sure how it would turn out \u2014 and then when he came to write the decision, he thought: this doesn&#8217;t add up. I can&#8217;t write that he&#8217;s guilty simply because my gut feeling is that he probably did it. The evidence just doesn&#8217;t support it. This is what research tells us: if you take the time to logically assess the evidence, it prevents you from falling into those traps.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This kind of slower, analytical assessment is of course something we would like to see more of in the police as well. One struggle in my country is that there is no explicit requirement to carry out hypothesis testing and actually document the assessment. That would be really valuable. I am still quite optimistic about the future here, though \u2014 some Supreme Court decisions over the last ten years have shown an impressive understanding of how human beings work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 06:34<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I remember many years ago \u2014 at least 25 years ago \u2014 when I was just starting to do training in Norway. I invited a senior appeal court judge from Oslo to talk to my students about how the judiciary perceived our work on interviewing, and how we could improve from their perspective. That was quite rare at the time; judges didn&#8217;t really want to talk to police. He said: &#8216;There are a lot of good things going on in the police \u2014 but why don&#8217;t you try to help the witnesses to say the same thing when they come to court? Because after all, you have been talking to all of them. So why should I sit there as a judge and listen to all these different stories?&#8217; That was quite something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 07:40<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you should just train them to have the same story so he doesn&#8217;t need to bother about it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 07:46<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because \u2014 you know what happened, don&#8217;t you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 07:49<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s interesting. It&#8217;s something police officers have also noted \u2014 that if you&#8217;re a police officer heard in court, you&#8217;re given quite a lot of credibility, in a way that is based on nothing. It&#8217;s not as if police officers have better eyesight or perception than other people. The same seems to go for medical doctors \u2014 they tend to be very highly regarded, which of course they should be, but they need to be scrutinised in the same way as any other expert witness, with attention to what they are actually basing their assessments on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 08:37<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Exactly. As I&#8217;ve described, I was expecting from my PhD \u2014 with my brilliant supervisors Per Anders Granhagen and Karl Ask \u2014 to find some kind of generic model for good thinking. But I didn&#8217;t find it. Where I did find inspiration for a model was in descriptive research from Martin Innes and others who observed how experienced detectives actually behaved on their best days, and tried to conceptualise what that looked like. I think we also have to communicate to practitioners that this is not about changing everything they do \u2014 research shows there are things they are already doing correctly; we&#8217;re just trying to help them understand why.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 10:13<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s a really good point, and I also think this kind of positive research is important. We can of course learn a great deal from miscarriages of justice. In Sweden, for example, there have been several such cases \u2014 including the Kailinna case, in which a man was wrongfully convicted for 13 years before being released. A strong confirmation bias meant investigators were looking in only one direction and not taking into account evidence pointing elsewhere. Within that investigation, there was one detective who from the outset was arguing they should look in other directions \u2014 and he was essentially frozen out of the group and had to go on sick leave.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This points to an organisational problem. The police in many countries \u2014 certainly in Finland and Sweden \u2014 have a very old-fashioned, top-down structure where the chief of each department has enormous power over how work is organised, and there are very few requirements around hypothesis testing or an open culture in which people can voice their thoughts freely. It should be better structured.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s also something that goes back to what you noted about cross-professional communication. Here in Finland in the south, where there are more people, training for lawyers, police, prosecutors, and judges tends to happen separately, within their own professional groups. Whereas in the north, where distances are long and there are fewer professionals, they tend to train together. I&#8217;ve been invited to Lapland several times for full-day events that bring together all criminal justice actors, and it is genuinely beneficial for everyone. It leads to lively discussions \u2014 but that&#8217;s good. In the south, you sometimes hear tiring conversations where defence attorneys complain about the police or the police complain about defence attorneys. Bringing them together creates far more interest in genuinely understanding each other&#8217;s positions and finding common ground.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 14:42<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s really interesting. Part of what people like you can do is be a mediator between those groups, delivering the same message to different audiences. And if those groups don&#8217;t communicate with each other as much as they could, at least there is someone communicating to all of them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 15:16<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Exactly. And there are related groups outside the criminal justice system as well. We have a research group called Psych Aid at \u00c5bo Akademi working on asylum procedures and how they can be improved. One thing we hear quite often is that the lawyers working with asylum seekers and the asylum officials can be quite frustrated with each other \u2014 yet both groups agree that some professionals in each field are excellent and some are poor. Here too, collaboration would be in the best interest of everyone, and especially in the interests of the legal rights of the asylum seeker.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then there are interpreters. We really need to train interpreters in the context of investigative interviews. I&#8217;ve had the joy of doing this in Finland in recent years for court interpreters who specialise in child forensic interview interpretation. Many of them were highly skilled already, but when trained in suggestibility, open-ended questioning, and the NICHD protocol, several said they had probably been doing things wrong \u2014 because even though they were told to phrase questions exactly as the interviewer does, without understanding why open-ended questions matter, they weren&#8217;t always able to do that. They were trying to help the child talk, and we know that if the right instruments aren&#8217;t there, that inclination to help can lead to suggestion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>My friend and colleague Sarah Landstr\u00f6m \u2014 professor in Gothenburg and one of our best child interview researchers \u2014 was recently asked what the main problem is when child interviews go wrong. She said she thinks it&#8217;s the incredible desire to help children tell. If you don&#8217;t possess the right technique, if you don&#8217;t understand that &#8216;helpful&#8217; questions can be detrimental if they&#8217;re not open-ended and grounded in the child&#8217;s own experience, the consequences can be disastrous.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 21:10<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It is really interesting how important language is. I sometimes think that because language and culture are so deeply interwoven, we are habits of our own language. I remember saying for years: you have to start the interview with an open-ended question. But obviously that doesn&#8217;t always work in a communicative setting \u2014 you have to break the ice first. We often do it in a subtle way: in the rapport-building phase before this interview we chatted informally, with a closed question. But that subtle invite isn&#8217;t really closed \u2014 it&#8217;s inviting you to say as much as you find appropriate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 22:20<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it would have been very strange if you had said: &#8216;Tell me everything about your weekend.&#8217;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 22:24<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Wouldn&#8217;t it? Completely \u2014 you would be invading my space in a very rude way. I think it&#8217;s so interesting how we probably have to focus even more in the future on how the advice from psychology looks in a cultural and linguistic context.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 22:47<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Luckily there&#8217;s a lot of interesting research on this. Annelies Reedevel, a professor from the Netherlands, is leading very interesting work on culture within investigative and legal psychology. One of her points is that we cannot expect individual police officers to have a deep understanding of all the cultures they may encounter \u2014 but they can have cultural humility and at least a minimum understanding of how they themselves are shaped by their own culture. It&#8217;s the beginning of Socratic insight into how much you don&#8217;t know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You were working quite a bit in Southeast Asia, and our interpreters from there noted that in some contexts it is much more difficult than in Northern Europe to say that you don&#8217;t know something or didn&#8217;t understand a question \u2014 it would be considered rude. That&#8217;s something that needs to be explicitly discussed before an interview.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I also think of my early experience with the NICHD protocol. We sometimes noted \u2014 with some amusement \u2014 that it seemed to depart from the assumption that if you ask a young child to &#8216;tell me about yourself&#8217;, they would start talking. In Finland, people are not taught to be especially talkative. That said, I think the culture has shifted: children today are much more encouraged to speak their minds. But other things remain very culturally dependent. How we socialise, how we build rapport \u2014 these differ significantly. A German study, for example, found that saying a child&#8217;s name repeatedly \u2014 &#8216;Eva, how are you? Nice to see you, Eva&#8217; \u2014 which might be fine in an American context, would feel immensely odd in Finland or Germany. These are things that need to be considered when applying any protocol to a specific context.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 27:43<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Absolutely. In many of the Asian countries where I work, it&#8217;s considered completely inappropriate to use the word &#8216;I&#8217; \u2014 in collective cultures, focusing on oneself is improper, so it&#8217;s implicit. You just say &#8216;eat rice&#8217; rather than &#8216;I eat rice&#8217;. And if you then try to translate that into a different context and a different language, you lose a lot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 28:29<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There is really interesting research on how adults who grew up in a traditional Chinese context recall their childhood experiences compared to those who grew up in a US context \u2014 specifically in relation to memories of what they did themselves. In more individualistic cultures, children are taught from a young age to talk about themselves and their own experiences. In more collectivistic cultures, children are not supposed to focus solely on their own perspective \u2014 and this is reflected in their adult memories: they remember less of what they themselves did, but more about the group.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And of course, one thing we need to avoid when discussing cultural differences is to attach labels and assume: &#8216;You are from the Arab region, so you must be this or that.&#8217; It is about openness \u2014 the realisation that we are all children of our own cultures, and that there is far more variation than we tend to think. Luckily, there&#8217;s a growing recognition of this within the research tradition, which has historically been very Western-focused.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 30:11<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Speaking of shifts \u2014 could you tell me a little about how investigative interviewing is being applied in a Finnish context? We&#8217;ve spoken about your lecturing and mentoring of different actors, but thinking more specifically about the police: how are they implementing this knowledge, from your perspective?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 31:06<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think I have a fairly good understanding of this. My colleague Tom Pakkanen did a comprehensive review of all the studies on how the Finnish police conduct investigative interviews. What emerged is that the picture is quite good when it comes to child interviews: there is clear guidance, strong recommendations, a one-year training required under the Pre-Trial Investigation Act, dedicated expert units, and forensic psychologists handling the most complex cases. That part is well established.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The problem is that it essentially ends there. There has been increasing pressure to improve investigations of human trafficking \u2014 which is welcome \u2014 but there is no equivalent pressure for other serious crime types. Femicide, for example, is a significant problem in Finland, but it has not gained the attention that would require specialists. Sexual crimes are similar: some departments have specialised units doing excellent work and video recording all interviews, but it is entirely down to individual departments.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For child suspects \u2014 young people under 18 involved in crime \u2014 there is an incredible gap. We have specialists who know how to interview reluctant children who have sent images online, for instance, and those children are often in a similar position to child suspects: they&#8217;ve done something wrong, they&#8217;re uncertain whether to talk, they&#8217;re very dependent on how the investigator approaches them. But we don&#8217;t apply this knowledge to child suspects. And as we know, child suspects are often also victims \u2014 from vulnerable backgrounds, sometimes manipulated by older criminals. Many would probably be quite willing to talk if approached properly. But there is no specific training for those officers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For adult interviews: as I said, my colleague went through everything available, and there is almost nothing on investigative interviewing in basic police studies. There is a small two-week course for experienced officers, but only a small group takes it each year. A study a couple of years ago found that officers around Finland knew almost nothing about different interviewing methods. The only one that was familiar to them was the NICHD. At least they hadn&#8217;t been taught Reid either \u2014 so I suppose that&#8217;s a plus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 36:33<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yes, I&#8217;ll bless that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 36:36<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It was striking how little they knew about any other interviewing methods. One of my colleagues from the police \u2014 who was for a long time the chief detective at the sexual crimes unit at the Helsinki police \u2014 took a legal psychology training course I coordinate. She later said that it was quite a shock to have been working as a trained police officer, in investigations where the interview is the most crucial tool, and to realise that you have to look outside the police to actually learn about methods that were created by the police and for the police. We&#8217;re not really doing that well here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 37:35<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That is really interesting. I think people from outside the Nordics tend to assume that Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Iceland are quite similar in these areas \u2014 because we are very similar in so many other aspects of society and culture. But on this particular topic, there are quite significant differences. And I think what you point out about recording is probably, at least in Norway, what was the tipping point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I myself, together with my good friend and colleague Asbj\u00f8rn Rachlew, led a national pilot project on recording all the way back in 1998. At that time, digital recording equipment was quite clunky and very expensive. The Minister of Justice invested significantly in testing different equipment. We distributed it to high-level departments around the country, and my job was to gather the experiences back. But we got nothing. After a year, there was no feedback.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We needed to have a frank conversation. Doesn&#8217;t it work? Is something wrong with the technology? There was complete silence. Then one evening we went out for dinner and people started to talk. One officer said: &#8216;Ivar, I don&#8217;t feel comfortable with recording myself \u2014 because no one ever taught me how to do an interview.&#8217; That was the moment it became clear: the reluctance isn&#8217;t just about justice. It&#8217;s also about officers&#8217; wellbeing, isn&#8217;t it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 39:48<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[Agrees]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 39:49<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that was the turning point. I said: of course, if we&#8217;re going to implement recording as a Norwegian standard, the first standard is to teach officers basic interviewing skills \u2014 memory, human memory, communication. And I think that was also a really important thing about building this properly, because then they actually needed it. We also made it slightly exclusive: you are not going to do this unless you are trained for it. We have to take care of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Of course, you can debate that \u2014 because the people without the training were probably the ones who really should have been recorded. But on the other hand, it gave it an aura of exclusivity: I am certified for recording. That became a skill, a badge. People wanted to be part of the group certified to conduct profiled, important interviews. I think it&#8217;s so interesting how something can be reframed into a culture of positive drive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 40:29<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>A final question \u2014 because you&#8217;re also doing a lot of interesting research in Finland on how technology can help implement or develop these kinds of skills and practices.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 41:23<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That would be a topic for a whole new discussion \u2014 but thinking very pragmatically: there are quite a few Finnish investigators who would actually want to do video recording, but some are not permitted to within their department. We are on our way, and we are typically following the example of Sweden, where the situation was also quite poor until a couple of years ago when new rules came in allowing initial interviews to be recorded and, in some cases, presented as evidence in court.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One question I always get is: who is going to store all these video recordings? And how are we going to manage transcription \u2014 it&#8217;s so costly, and if prosecutors receive 13,000 pages of transcripts, that&#8217;s genuinely difficult. In Sweden, I&#8217;ve understood they now use very good automatic transcription \u2014 tools like Whisper and similar \u2014 and apparently also a programme that generates summaries for prosecutors. Of course these can&#8217;t be trusted completely, and there will be things you still need to go back and check. But the technology will make it much easier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In recent years I&#8217;ve also been looking quite a lot at human trafficking cases, many of which involve parties from around the world \u2014 in Finland we&#8217;ve had cases with berry pickers from Thailand, for example. You can either fly all these witnesses here, or you can ensure really decent ways of hearing people remotely. I&#8217;m currently doing research on hearing people remotely to court. There are a lot of good possibilities \u2014 pragmatic things like ensuring people are heard from safe spaces, with legal support and an understanding of the procedures. Cross-border hearings could become much easier and much more humane.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And of course, one thing Norway has done for decades is preserve pretrial investigation evidence. If a victim develops Alzheimer&#8217;s, or dies, or is unable to speak about every aspect of a crime two or three years later in court proceedings that have dragged on, their voice can still be heard through the video-recorded interview.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also just published a study \u2014 the first author is Lisa J\u00e4rvilehto, who is both an investigator with more than a decade of child abuse investigations and an excellent researcher. One of her studies examined using AI to help generate meaningful, relevant alternative hypotheses to child abuse allegations \u2014 and AI was actually very good at this. Experts are then well-placed to discard the ones that aren&#8217;t relevant. She is now looking at the extent to which AI can help human interviewers improve their questions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>With all the limits that implies, I do think we can develop very useful tools for interview training, interview assessment, and perhaps even real-time aids in investigative interviews. But we need to be very mindful not to deploy anything before we can ensure it does not lead to negative consequences. I don&#8217;t see AI taking over investigative interviewing in any conceivable future \u2014 but I do see AI as a potentially very helpful assistant to it, and very much so in training and assessment contexts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing<\/strong>&nbsp; 47:03<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia, we could go on for the rest of the day with another list of really interesting topics. Thank you for a truly engaging and inspiring conversation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Julia Korkman<\/strong>&nbsp; 47:10<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thank you \u2014 it was a pleasure, as always.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">END OF TRANSCRIPT<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>\u00a9 2026 Davidhorn. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-buttons is-content-justification-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-buttons-is-layout-a89b3969 wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-button read-more-btn\"><a class=\"wp-block-button__link wp-element-button\">Read more<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-6c531013 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-28f84493 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"flex-basis:50%\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dr Julia Korkman on why investigative interviewing must be built on memory science and how Finland is using AI to&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":16846,"template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"inline_featured_image":false},"content-type-taxonomy":[25],"industry-taxonomy":[31,60],"class_list":["post-16843","resource-hub","type-resource-hub","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","content-type-taxonomy-podcasts","industry-taxonomy-military","industry-taxonomy-police-interview-recording"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO Premium plugin v27.3 (Yoast SEO v27.3) - 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