{"id":17025,"date":"2026-06-04T08:46:27","date_gmt":"2026-06-04T06:46:27","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/?post_type=resource-hub&#038;p=17025"},"modified":"2026-06-08T10:10:09","modified_gmt":"2026-06-08T08:10:09","slug":"justice-under-fire-reforming-investigative-interviewing-in-wartime-ukraine-ep-22","status":"publish","type":"resource-hub","link":"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/resource-hub\/justice-under-fire-reforming-investigative-interviewing-in-wartime-ukraine-ep-22\/","title":{"rendered":"Investigative Interviewing in Ukraine during Wartime &#8211; ep. 22"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-primary-25-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80);padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30)\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns alignwide are-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-6787811b wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"flex-basis:40%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1200\" height=\"1200\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/03162430\/Episodes-22.jpg\" alt=\"Investigative Interviewing in Ukraine\" class=\"wp-image-17202\" srcset=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/03162430\/Episodes-22.jpg 1200w, https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/03162430\/Episodes-22-300x300.jpg 300w, https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/03162430\/Episodes-22-1024x1024.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/03162430\/Episodes-22-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/03162430\/Episodes-22-768x768.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\" \/><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h1 id=\"h-episode-22-justice-under-fire-reforming-investigative-interviewing-in-wartime-ukraine\" class=\"wp-block-heading has-display-small-font-size\" style=\"line-height:1.2\">Episode 22. Justice Under Fire: Reforming Investigative Interviewing in Wartime Ukraine<\/h1>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-3a88641f wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"flex-basis:100%\">\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify wp-embed-aspect-21-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\" style=\"margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80)\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"Spotify Embed: Justice Under Fire: Reforming Investigative Interviewing in Wartime Ukraine\" style=\"border-radius: 12px\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/0GxQ8XHsFbWFtuG9XCpKzh?si=QexO1_cJSnaUX4-D8WHfDA&amp;utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-display-font-size wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-cc64f3e6 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80)\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns alignwide is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-3a84d418 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"flex-basis:300px\">\n<h2 id=\"h-recorded-live-at-the-nbsp-davidhorn-nbsp-police-interview-summit-2026-manchester\" class=\"wp-block-heading is-style-lead\">Recorded live at the&nbsp;Davidhorn&nbsp;Police Interview Summit 2026, Manchester.<\/h2>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this episode, Dr Ivar Fahsing is joined by\u00a0Vasylyna Yavorska\u00a0\u2014 lawyer, criminal justice reformer, and CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/justgroup.com.ua\/en\/\" type=\"link\" id=\"https:\/\/justgroup.com.ua\/en\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">JustGroup<\/a>, Ukraine&#8217;s leading NGO for criminal justice transformation.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Vasylyna has coordinated Ukraine&#8217;s national expert team on investigative interviewing since 2017. She speaks about the challenge of shifting a system away from confession-driven success metrics, building coalitions for change inside resistant institutions, and the pivotal moment in March 2022 when her team was asked to develop prisoner-of-war interview guidelines while Kyiv was still partly under occupation.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">She also addresses the barriers to scaling investigative interviewing across a large multi-agency system, why mandatory recording is central to her advocacy work, and how she sees technology and human judgment combining to deliver justice more quickly in complex cases.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Beyond a Reasonable Doubt<\/em>&nbsp;is a podcast series hosted by Dr Ivar Fahsing, exploring investigative interviewing across&nbsp;jurisdictions, cultures, and disciplines. Produced by Davidhorn.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Recorded live at the\u00a0Davidhorn\u00a0Police Interview Summit 2026 in Manchester, Dr Ivar Fahsing speaks with\u00a0Vasylyna\u00a0Yavorska\u00a0\u2014 Ukrainian lawyer, criminal justice reformer, and CEO of JustGroup \u2014 about what it means to try to transform a criminal justice system in the middle of a war.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Vasylyna&nbsp;has coordinated Ukraine&#8217;s national team of investigative interviewing experts since 2017. In this conversation, she talks candidly about the challenge of shifting practitioners away from confession-focused thinking, the structural barriers to scaling investigative interviewing across a large and complex justice system, and the moment in March 2022 \u2014 Kyiv still partly occupied \u2014 when her team was asked to develop guidelines for interviewing prisoners of war.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Topics covered include: defining success in an interview; building internal champions for change; why mandatory recording is an advocacy priority; the impact of martial law on Ukraine&#8217;s approach to pre-trial testimony; and what&nbsp;Vasylyna&nbsp;would most want from technology to support investigators handling complex, high-volume cases.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Main topics<\/strong>:&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Investigative interviewing as an entry point for systemic criminal justice reform&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Shifting from confession-focused to information-focused practice&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>The 2020 finding: 61% of Ukrainian investigators defined confession as success&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>What systemic change requires: leadership, training, infrastructure, monitoring&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Why reform matters more, not less, during active conflict&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Developing prisoner-of-war interview guidelines in March 2022&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>War crimes interviewing in practice \u2014 the Bucha unit, 2,000+ interviews&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Managing resistance and building internal champions&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Horizontal learning among practitioners&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Barriers to scaling across a large, multi-agency system&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Mandatory recording \u2014 legislation, martial law, and the case for reform&nbsp;<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Technology and human judgment in complex, high-volume cases&nbsp;<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>Investigative interviewing reform in wartime Ukraine \u2014&nbsp;Vasylyna&nbsp;Yavorska&nbsp;on systemic change, mandatory recording, and justice under pressure.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-primary-25-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--50);padding-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--50)\">\n<h2 id=\"h-about-the-guest\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">About the guest<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-3a88641f wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<h2 id=\"h-vasylyna-yavorska\" class=\"wp-block-heading is-style-lead\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Vasylyna Yavorska is a Ukrainian lawyer and criminal justice reform specialist with over 15 years of experience designing systemic change in law enforcement. She is CEO of JustGroup, a national NGO focused on transforming Ukraine&#8217;s criminal justice system to be more effective, fair, and human-centred. Since 2017 she has coordinated Ukraine&#8217;s national team of experts on investigative\u00a0interviewing, and\u00a0has led work with the Office of the Prosecutor General and National Police on developing interviewing standards\u00a0&#8211;\u00a0including, from the first weeks of Russia&#8217;s full-scale invasion, guidelines for interviewing prisoners of war. She is currently active in scaling up investigative interviewing practice across Ukrainian law enforcement, including with war crimes units who have now conducted more than 2,000 interviews.\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-3a88641f wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-834932f1 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-19a1b693 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<h2 id=\"h-watch-and-listen-wherever-you-get-your-podcasts-youtube-link-here\" class=\"wp-block-heading has-huge-font-size\"><a href=\"https:\/\/rss.com\/podcasts\/beyond-a-reasonable-doubt-podcast\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Watch and listen wherever you get your podcasts<\/a> (<a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/nZoK5TLL1pk\" type=\"link\" id=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/nZoK5TLL1pk\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Youtube link here<\/a>)<\/h2>\n<\/section>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-3a88641f wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-3a88641f wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-3a88641f wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80)\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group alignwide is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<h2 id=\"h-related-products\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Related products<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"align wp-block-site-carousel\" id=\"block-76ecb5ab2e280c38bef27dd939e28181\">\n\n<div class=\"swiper\">\n\t<div class=\"swiper-button-prev\"><\/div>\n\t<div class=\"swiper-button-next\"><\/div>\n\t<ul class=\"carousel carousel__container swiper-wrapper\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"carousel__item swiper-slide\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/product\/fixed-recorder\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<figure class=\"carousel__figure\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/18110937\/DSCF0669-1-1024x683.jpg\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/figure>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"carousel__item-content\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"carousel__item-title\">Fixed Recorder<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<p class=\"carousel__item-excerpt\"><p>Fixed HD recorder for high security interview rooms.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"carousel__item swiper-slide\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/product\/portable-recorder\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<figure class=\"carousel__figure\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/05\/18111442\/DSCF0515-scaled-e1718709426242-961x1024.jpg\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/figure>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"carousel__item-content\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"carousel__item-title\">Portable Recorder<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<p class=\"carousel__item-excerpt\"><p>Lightweight, PACE-compliant interview recorder for any setting.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"carousel__item swiper-slide\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/product\/capture\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<figure class=\"carousel__figure\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/22070457\/Mobile_product-1024x1007.jpg\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/figure>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"carousel__item-content\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"carousel__item-title\">Capture<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<p class=\"carousel__item-excerpt\"><p>Mobile app recorder for capturing evidence on the go.\u2028<\/p>\n<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<li class=\"carousel__item swiper-slide\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/davidhorn.com\/es\/product\/ark-interview-management\/\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<figure class=\"carousel__figure\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/d3pwq9e4hibwhv.cloudfront.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/06\/26094613\/DSCF1093_1-1-scaled-e1719395228933-1024x797.jpg\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/figure>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"carousel__item-content\">\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<h2 class=\"carousel__item-title\">Ark Interview Management<\/h2>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<p class=\"carousel__item-excerpt\"><p>Receive, monitor, and keep evidence throughout its lifetime.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/a>\n\t\t\t\t<\/li>\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/ul>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"swiper-pagination\"><\/div>\n\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n\n\n\n<section class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"margin-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80);margin-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--80)\"><\/section>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-primary-25-background-color has-background is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group summary has-primary-25-background-color has-background has-global-padding is-content-justification-center is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-dafb1d23 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\" style=\"padding-top:var(--wp--preset--spacing--50);padding-right:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30);padding-bottom:var(--wp--preset--spacing--50);padding-left:var(--wp--preset--spacing--30)\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group summary-wrapper has-global-padding is-content-justification-center is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<h2 id=\"h-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Guest: Vasylyna&nbsp;Yavorska<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Host: Dr Ivar Fahsing<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[00:10]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Vasylyna Yavorska, welcome to our live podcast, recorded here at the Radisson Hotel in Manchester, England.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[00:21]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I&#8217;m&nbsp;so happy to have you as a guest. How are you?&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska&nbsp; <\/strong>[00:27]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I&#8217;m&nbsp;fine, thank you. Glad to be here.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[00:30]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I&nbsp;don&#8217;t&nbsp;know how often you appear&nbsp;in&nbsp;live broadcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska&nbsp; <\/strong>[00:33]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I have no experience of live broadcasts, but in Ukraine we have done such things. This is supposed to be a relaxing conversation between you and me. But&nbsp;of course&nbsp;we will try to go into topics that relate to investigative interviewing, fair trials, technology, and the wider implications of this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[00:56]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But before we dive in, I would like you to give&nbsp;a short introduction&nbsp;\u2014 who you are, what you do, and where you work.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [01:04]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I will start by saying that I am a lawyer by degree, but for more than the last 15 years I have been working in my own country, Ukraine, in what I love to call &#8216;managing ideas&#8217; \u2014 transforming the criminal justice system. I worked on many projects and initiatives, and what I love most of all is designing how we can achieve change within the criminal justice system. I have seen the system from&nbsp;very different perspectives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[01:41]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The second role, which is probably&nbsp;very important&nbsp;for this podcast, is that I have been coordinator of the national team of experts on investigative interviewing since 2017. We were a small group of champions, enthusiastic about the need for this approach in our country \u2014 and we are still at it.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[02:05]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The third role is that I am now CEO of the JustGroup, a national non-governmental\u00a0organisation\u00a0focused on the transformation of the criminal justice system. We want to make our system more effective, fair, and human-centred. These are my different perspectives.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[02:27]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I have been happy to be working quite closely with you for many years, and I am really impressed by what you are doing. Could you go a little deeper? What is investigative interviewing&nbsp;to&nbsp;you? What is the idea or the ethos behind it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[02:46]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We have this season of the&nbsp;Davidhorn&nbsp;podcast, called Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, and we have a set of questions we try to ask different people from different contexts, jurisdictions, and cultures \u2014 just to see how similar and how different they are.&nbsp;So&nbsp;the first question is always: what is investigative interviewing&nbsp;to&nbsp;you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska&nbsp;<\/strong> [03:12]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I personally tend to look at the criminal justice system from a human rights perspective, and I have had a rich background in human rights work in relation to law enforcement. But there was something \u2014 a gap I felt for many years. We very often spoke with law enforcement officials in the language of restriction: &#8216;you shouldn&#8217;t do this or that.&#8217; And when investigative interviewing was introduced in Ukraine \u2014 actually by your colleague Alvin Radcliffe in 2017 \u2014 we got the idea that here was a methodology which could introduce a shift in mindset for practitioners: how they could be efficient and at the same time observe human rights and safeguards.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[04:16]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For me personally, I now look at investigative interviewing not only as a methodology, a standard, or an approach to gathering information, but also as a very good entry point for system transformation \u2014 when we talk about how the criminal justice system thinks, how practitioners make decisions, how they define success. For me, it is something like a transformative shift.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[04:50]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Absolutely. Would you say it changes your mindset? What do you mean by that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [04:55]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The way we actually think, how we structure information, how we define our goals \u2014 what we want to achieve during the interview, or across the whole investigation.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[05:12]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Together with our friends in the region, we are more than happy to have a partnership with the Regional Centre for Human Rights on a national development&nbsp;programme&nbsp;on investigative interviewing for Ukrainian practitioners. And one question we ask at the very beginning of every&nbsp;programme&nbsp;is: how do you define the success of an interview?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[05:35]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For me, it is a very diagnostic question \u2014 how do you see that you achieved your goal? How do you define that goal?&nbsp;And in 2020, we conducted research together with colleagues.&nbsp;At that time, 61% of Ukrainian investigators&nbsp;indicated&nbsp;that a confession was what they perceived as success during an investigation. So&nbsp;probably we&nbsp;needed to change something. For me personally, it is exactly that shift we are trying to achieve \u2014 to become more focused on gathering reliable information rather than on achieving a confession.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[06:22]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Couldn&#8217;t&nbsp;agree more.&nbsp;You also mentioned in the intro that you are actually trying to achieve systemic change.&nbsp;Does that mean you believe this mindset shift can have wider implications for your country?&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [06:39]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think when we talk about systemic change, it is of course&nbsp;very important&nbsp;to shift the mindset of individual investigators and prosecutors. But&nbsp;I believe we&nbsp;need to do more. When we talk about systemic change, we need investigative interviewing \u2014 yes \u2014 but we also need to understand that it must be reflected in structural decisions, like standards embedded within the system, and infrastructure that supports a good environment for interviewing adults and children alike.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[07:29]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In our country we still face the problem of not having dedicated space for interviewing. It is very hard to talk about building rapport&nbsp;and&nbsp;good&nbsp;conversation&nbsp;when you are sharing a room with colleagues while trying to make contact with the person you are interviewing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[07:50]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So&nbsp;I believe that systemic change&nbsp;is first about leadership and ownership \u2014 we need to reach the point where the leadership of the criminal justice system acknowledges: &#8216;We are moving in this direction. We want to achieve this as our core&nbsp;standard.&#8217;&nbsp;The second is training \u2014 we must work on mindset, skills, and infrastructure. And&nbsp;I believe we&nbsp;also need monitoring and evaluation tools within the system, to understand where we are, to stop and&nbsp;observe, and to&nbsp;analyse&nbsp;the data to see whether we are moving in the right direction or not. That is something we are still working on.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[08:46]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Ukraine is in the middle of a war. Why is this important for you right now?&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [08:53]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It is both a hard and&nbsp;a simple&nbsp;question at the same time. I think back to March 2022 \u2014 the full-scale invasion of the Russian Federation into my country began in February 2022, and Crimea had been occupied since 2014. I was in the western part of Ukraine in early 2022, together with my son, feeling&nbsp;somewhat safer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[09:24]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I was trying not to disconnect from my work on the criminal justice system. At that moment, part of the Kyiv region was still under occupation by the Russian Federation. And our team of experts on investigative interviewing was contacted by the Office of the Prosecutor General \u2014 could we talk about interviewing?&nbsp;And we had a Zoom call in March, under very strange and complex circumstances for all of us.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[10:04]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And we discussed one thing: could we have guidelines for interviewing prisoners of war?&nbsp;I come back to that moment very often now.&nbsp;Because at that moment it became&nbsp;very clear&nbsp;to me that this was not about&nbsp;guidelines or instruments&nbsp;or training. It was about the choice of a country and a system \u2014 about values, about what we want to stand for as a country, as practitioners, as professionals. For me, it was a moment that gave me even more inspiration and strength to move on.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[10:53]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And after that we had many discussions with the Office of the Prosecutor General and the National Police \u2014 especially those units investigating war crimes. They were highly supportive of any approaches that would allow them to collect reliable information. Because they understand very clearly that the challenges are greater now, and they need somehow to document everything that is happening \u2014 not just for courts and investigations, but for the next generation.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[11:42]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And&nbsp;I believe that&nbsp;was&nbsp;a very important&nbsp;moment. After that, there was&nbsp;a very clear&nbsp;message from top leaders in the criminal justice system: we need to find a way to raise the standard of interviewing. We were not perfect then, and our investigators and prosecutors are still on the path \u2014 upskilling, developing, growing. But&nbsp;I believe it&nbsp;is important for the criminal justice system to make this choice and then to design a roadmap for how to move forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[12:31]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I find that fascinating. I&nbsp;don&#8217;t&nbsp;know if you know that Sigmund Freud is supposed to have said something like this \u2014 that fair trials and a good criminal justice system are the first&nbsp;prerequisite&nbsp;for a good democracy.&nbsp;I think that is a really interesting parallel to what you are saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[12:57]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I have had the privilege of talking with many of your prosecutors and detectives \u2014 sometimes not in person, because of the situation, so mostly online. I have never been in the room to see that interaction directly. How is this message, this&nbsp;change, this&nbsp;training received? Do prosecutors and detectives take it in? Do they handle it?&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [13:33]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I must be honest \u2014 it is absolutely natural for adults to be resistant to something new, generally.&nbsp;We have our&nbsp;backgrounds, we know what to do, and we have been doing it for decades. And then suddenly someone comes along and tries to explain that you need to do things differently. We still feel some resistance. But&nbsp;I believe it&nbsp;is a very constructive dialogue. We try to find the right words and the right language to explain, and to find the right arguments. From my perspective, it is a question of dialogue \u2014 how we build this dialogue with practitioners and institutions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[14:27]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Another element is building real partnership and&nbsp;trust, because&nbsp;we understand this is a long journey. We are not expecting to change things from Monday. We are ready to be partners \u2014 to be with you on this road, facing all the challenges and finding solutions together. That is actually how we act as an&nbsp;organisation, because we are very focused on the role of partner to criminal justice practitioners and institutions, to ensure we can find the right arguments for them and overcome the resistance that I believe every system has.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[15:17]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think all of us have that \u2014 it is&nbsp;probably rooted&nbsp;in the need to defend what you are already doing. If you change, do you have no&nbsp;honour&nbsp;in what you have already been doing?&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [15:37]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I would add that our approach is not to try to cover the&nbsp;whole system&nbsp;from the very beginning. It is to&nbsp;identify&nbsp;and engage the right&nbsp;people from&nbsp;within the system \u2014 those who are more ready for change. That is&nbsp;very important&nbsp;to&nbsp;me,&nbsp;because you can build links with the system and have allies inside it. It is much easier for an investigator to speak with their colleague and say: &#8216;Look, I tried this approach, I tried this instrument, here is my experience \u2014 let&#8217;s discuss that.&#8217; I believe that works very well, especially in a criminal justice context, because horizontal learning among people is&nbsp;very important.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[16:54]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Couldn&#8217;t&nbsp;agree more. And personally, I sometimes feel almost uncomfortable \u2014 I have to say \u2014 when I deliver these lectures in Ukraine, because I am, as you know, also psychologically touched by that war. It hurts. Of course it hurts all of us.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[17:16]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Sometimes&nbsp;I feel I&nbsp;am delivering a&nbsp;somewhat peripheral&nbsp;message when I talk about interviewing. But as you know, we had training in Krak\u00f3w, almost two years&nbsp;ago now&nbsp;\u2014 around two years ago \u2014 and the CEO of Davidhorn was there, together with Alex Fawcett from Manchester and Ruth Underwood from the Met.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[17:43]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I have delivered these kinds of&nbsp;trainings&nbsp;all around the world for many years. There are some positives in that \u2014 the coin does not always drop during the three days of training. But I have never seen a group of detectives and prosecutors able to adapt and absorb this more quickly than that group we trained in Krak\u00f3w. I was so impressed.&nbsp;My personal experience of that hands-on training was really, really good.&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[18:21]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Also in Norway, when we started a similar process of change around 25 to 26 years ago \u2014 of course you should not spend all your time with people who resist. There are plenty of people who genuinely want this. Spend your time there and let it spread naturally.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [18:44]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yes, naturally. You cannot force some things to grow artificially. Sometimes it takes time, and you need to accept that and just move forward \u2014 step by step, not giving up, just looking for the next small step, but always moving forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[19:09]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And I believe that&nbsp;crisis&nbsp;can be the best motivator or the best driver, because when you are under pressure you try to find solutions, and you understand that you cannot continue working in the same way. For the Ukrainian system \u2014 across many different sectors \u2014 this crisis has&nbsp;actually become&nbsp;a driver, an&nbsp;additional&nbsp;motivation, an&nbsp;additional&nbsp;source of energy. Because you understand you need to defend yourself, your family, your values, your country.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[19:57]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I told you a story yesterday \u2014 I have friends working for the Norwegian Navy Special Forces, the Norwegian SEALs, and they have been working quite closely with some of your divisions down there for some time. Officially, they are there to train you.&nbsp;But when we share a beer, they say: &#8216;Ivar, we are actually the ones who learned the most.&#8217;&nbsp;So&nbsp;it is a very dualistic and valuable relationship for my friends in the Norwegian&nbsp;Defence&nbsp;Forces as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[20:32]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And the way I have come to know Ukrainians is that I feel quite certain it will not be long until you are teaching us how to implement investigative interviewing, because things move very slowly in many European countries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[20:54]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I really would like to share a story. We were delivering training together with the UK in Lebanon some years ago, funded by the Council of Europe. Two high-level observers came to see how we were progressing \u2014 one retired Supreme Court judge from Paris and a very senior judge from Germany. They were&nbsp;very serious&nbsp;people, but after a night or two they liked what they saw, and we went out to dinner together on the last evening with some parliamentary members and politicians from Beirut.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[21:39]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When the others left, they said: &#8216;We are really impressed by this \u2014 we really like it.&#8217; I said: &#8216;Here we have one German and one French person coming to Beirut to see how we are implementing investigative interviewing. Are you aware that this does not exist in your&nbsp;countries?&#8217;&nbsp;&#8216;What?&#8217; &#8216;No, there is absolutely nothing that even resembles this.&#8217; In France there are some pockets. In Germany very few. I was shocked.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[22:32]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But then in the taxi home, the German said: &#8216;Ivar, you surely know why.&#8217; I said no. &#8216;It&#8217;s&nbsp;British. We&nbsp;wouldn&#8217;t&nbsp;touch it with a&nbsp;stick.&#8217;&nbsp;So&nbsp;there are cultural factors at play as well.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [22:48]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That is&nbsp;probably true. But what we have is that our investigators and prosecutors are regularly&nbsp;practising&nbsp;\u2014 unfortunately, especially war crimes. I was just in Bucha last week, at a police unit that has a special war crimes team.&nbsp;Bucha, as you know, is a town near Kyiv \u2014 it was occupied during the early stages of the war and is unfortunately now a very well-known place.&nbsp;That unit has conducted around 2,000 interviews, and these are not easy interviews \u2014 they are typically with victims and witnesses of war crimes, and with prisoners of war.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[23:45]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I believe that this practice \u2014 interviewing, recording, and reflecting \u2014 combined with training, has allowed these professionals to grow. Unfortunately for us as a country. But we are&nbsp;practising, and I believe they will&nbsp;consolidate&nbsp;this&nbsp;expertise&nbsp;and experience and will be ready to share it with colleagues elsewhere, because we have&nbsp;very good&nbsp;people who are deeply committed to the core values of investigative interviewing.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[24:23]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Really&nbsp;looking forward to that. And you mentioned that the French and Germans did not want it because it was British \u2014 well, that is why we are now trying to package it differently. The new UN standard, for instance, may help. But looking at Ukraine \u2014 are there particular barriers or issues that typically come up when you are implementing this?&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska&nbsp; <\/strong>[25:02]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thank you. The main challenge is probably \u2014 and it is a little bit of a joke \u2014 that we are still a big country. We have five investigative agencies and a large prosecutor service. We can be&nbsp;very optimistic&nbsp;that we will eventually cover all our investigators and prosecutors with training,&nbsp;monitoring&nbsp;and evaluation, upskilling, and so on. But&nbsp;I believe the biggest barrier&nbsp;is how to design the scaling-up properly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[25:42]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We already have a national instructor team, a Community of Champions, practitioners, and recording in the war crimes unit. But there are still gaps in the system.&nbsp;The barrier I see is finding a way to extend training and practical support to the majority of investigators and prosecutors.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[26:18]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Another challenge is infrastructure. As I mentioned at the outset, we really need to create environments where professionals can&nbsp;practise&nbsp;investigative interviewing. We cannot require investigators and prosecutors to conduct investigative interviewing if they do not have&nbsp;appropriate facilities&nbsp;to do so.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[26:46]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We are&nbsp;actually quite&nbsp;optimistic about integrating standards into the&nbsp;system, because&nbsp;it is already embedded in the strategic documents of the Office of the Prosecutor General \u2014 there will be national guidelines on investigative interviewing, and we believe that will happen this year. But managing the restructuring of training&nbsp;programmes&nbsp;across&nbsp;different types&nbsp;of agencies is still a challenge.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[27:19]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And one more \u2014 monitoring and evaluation. I personally believe in this as a tool for learning, but there is still a&nbsp;perception&nbsp;that&nbsp;monitoring&nbsp;and evaluation are about control. That is also a cultural shift we need to introduce. We need to explain why and how we are doing it, and how to engage management and use peer-to-peer instruments to support each other \u2014 rather than simply checking whether requirements are met.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[28:11]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">No one wants to feel they are being made a fool of. I remember in Norway in the late 1990s \u2014 as has been said several times today \u2014 much of the innovation in this field was driven by&nbsp;miscarriages of justice. We had several serious&nbsp;ones surface&nbsp;in the 1990s, and the&nbsp;defence&nbsp;lawyers&#8217; association publicly demanded the mandatory recording of all suspect interviews.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[28:46]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Ministry of Justice responded by launching a trial project, which was run by Asbj\u00f8rn Rachlew and me as secretaries. We were young detectives at the time. Digital recording was then very new,&nbsp;very expensive, and quite bulky \u2014&nbsp;almost the&nbsp;size of a guitar case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[29:16]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We distributed equipment to about five police forces around Norway and waited to collect interviews and see what was happening. But very few interviews came back. We had spent a lot of money, so we held a meeting in Oslo for a frank discussion \u2014 what was happening? Didn&#8217;t it work? No one said anything.&nbsp;So&nbsp;we went out for a beer, and I said: &#8216;It is not the equipment. It is just&nbsp;the&nbsp;fact that they do not know what to&nbsp;say.&#8217;&nbsp;They were afraid to push the record button.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[29:58]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That was when we&nbsp;realised&nbsp;these people needed training.&nbsp;Of course&nbsp;they need training if they want to feel confident and do&nbsp;a good job&nbsp;in front of a camera. So that was when we&nbsp;realised&nbsp;we needed a national training&nbsp;programme&nbsp;for interviewing, and we started developing that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[30:18]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So&nbsp;what about recording today in Ukraine?&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [30:21]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">From my perspective, it is very connected with infrastructure.&nbsp;I am absolutely certain that we need mandatory recording \u2014 not only to collect reliable and accurate information, but also to have the opportunity to review and learn.&nbsp;We have&nbsp;recording&nbsp;for children&#8217;s interviews, and the war crimes department is now recording many of its interviews, but not all.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[30:59]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I believe we&nbsp;have some complications in our legislation. From a high-level perspective,&nbsp;I believe this&nbsp;is very connected with trust in the police. When the new Criminal Procedure Code was introduced in Ukraine more than ten years ago, our country was near the top of the European Court of Human Rights list for judgements on torture and ill-treatment. Because of that,&nbsp;a very strict&nbsp;standard was set in the legislation: no pre-trial testimony may be used during a court hearing. Judges must invite every witness and victim to give evidence at the hearing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[32:04]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Now, under martial law, practitioners have more&nbsp;opportunity&nbsp;to use pre-trial testimony, because everyone understands that we may lose people, lose access to witnesses, and lose information. That is why practitioners are now trying and&nbsp;practising&nbsp;recording and&nbsp;introducing&nbsp;it to the courts. And at this moment we see that even judges and courts are more open to this entirely&nbsp;new approach.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[32:41]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In this regard, I believe that mandatory recording will be the strongest argument: if all safeguards are in place and the recording quality is good, a judge can rely on that testimony. Because we are currently also facing the problem of extremely long court proceedings \u2014 we are effectively shifting the burden of investigation from investigators to judges, asking them to conduct interviews during hearings. From my perspective, that is not an efficient way for a criminal justice system to&nbsp;operate.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[33:39]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We need very good investigative work by investigators and prosecutors, and then the judge should check \u2014 if there are questions, they have the opportunity to invite people to a court hearing.&nbsp;That is&nbsp;probably why&nbsp;mandatory&nbsp;recording&nbsp;will be&nbsp;a very important&nbsp;advocacy goal for the next stage as well.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[34:05]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Exactly. You are here at a summit hosted by Davidhorn, a world-leading technology company focused on supporting better justice from the moment of first contact. If you could wish for something in terms of technological development, what would be&nbsp;highest&nbsp;on your list?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [34:32]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I have one wish, but it is not directly about investigative interviewing \u2014 all Ukrainians wish the same thing. But I believe I should come back to the message I have already mentioned: the most important change we need in the criminal justice system is about people, and the level of qualification of investigators and prosecutors.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[35:12]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As a civil society&nbsp;organisation, we sometimes ask too&nbsp;much&nbsp;of them. That is why I believe that creating&nbsp;the&nbsp;space where their time and efforts can be used efficiently gives us more opportunity to achieve justice in society. When we talk about very complex cases \u2014 war crimes, high-profile corruption cases, cases with enormous volumes of information \u2014 I believe there is a need to find the right combination of technology&#8217;s capacity to&nbsp;analyse, collect, and preserve information, and the human intellect and cognitive capabilities of professionals in the system.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[36:13]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Because ultimately, everyone&nbsp;needs to feel that justice exists. But sometimes it takes too long to wait for it. I believe that this combination of human professionalism and technology can help give us the chance for justice sooner. That is&nbsp;probably my&nbsp;answer, and my wish.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[36:38]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Yes \u2014 that tight interaction between the two. You are not talking about replacing human&nbsp;judgment, but&nbsp;about understanding more clearly where we can bring technology in, where we can&nbsp;assist, and where the decision must&nbsp;ultimately rest&nbsp;with the investigator or prosecutor. I believe that decisions should be taken by investigators and prosecutors. But where can technology&nbsp;assist&nbsp;them \u2014 and where do they simply need to say: &#8216;This is my decision. This is what I am here&nbsp;for.&#8217;&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">[37:18]&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Vaselina, thank you so much for sharing your insights. I wish you a safe journey forward \u2014 for the future of Ukraine, but also for the future of a better, fairer, and more just society. Thank you so much for coming to the podcast.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna&nbsp;Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [37:48]&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thank you. It is so nice to be here.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Dr. Ivar Fahsing&nbsp; <\/strong>[37:50]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I know the efforts you made to come here, and I also know you are about to leave for Geneva for another important meeting.&nbsp;Thank you so much.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Vasylyna&nbsp;Yavorska<\/strong>&nbsp; [38:02]&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Thank you so much.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<h3 id=\"h-end-of-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">END OF TRANSCRIPT<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u00a9 2026 Davidhorn. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-buttons is-content-justification-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-buttons-is-layout-b29d4327 wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-button read-more-btn\"><a class=\"wp-block-button__link wp-element-button\">Read more<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-3a88641f wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-3a88641f wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\" style=\"flex-basis:50%\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Vasylyna Yavorska is a Ukrainian lawyer and criminal justice reform specialist with over 15 years of experience&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":17216,"template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"inline_featured_image":false},"content-type-taxonomy":[25],"industry-taxonomy":[31,60],"class_list":["post-17025","resource-hub","type-resource-hub","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","content-type-taxonomy-podcasts","industry-taxonomy-military","industry-taxonomy-police-interview-recording"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO Premium plugin v27.7 (Yoast SEO v27.8) - 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