Episode 03.
We’re at a tipping point in interrogation practices – Emily Alison in conversation with Børge Hansen

Transcript

Børge Hansen 

Good morning, Emily. How are you today? 

Emily Alison 

Good morning. I’m fine. How are you Børge?  

Børge Hansen 

I’m good. Outside the weather in Norway where I’m at right now, it’s very similar to the first time we met. We actually met in a very picturesque small town in southern part of Norway where the weather was beautiful and we met for the first time me, you, Lawrence and Norwegian police detective Ivar Fahsing. And we talked about for the first time about the work that you guys have done, the work that we and Davidhorn are doing, and how do we collaborate and work on expanding the field of investigative interviewing?  

Emily Alison 

Yes, absolutely. Yes, well, I’m quite jealous then because here in the UK, we’ve had about 10 months of rain and it persists. So I’ve just come in out with the rain this morning. 

Børge Hansen  

Yeah. Can you for our listeners, why don’t you give them a little bit of who is Emily Allison? 

Emily Alison 

Right. Yes. So there’s a question. So I am a research associate and psychologist at the University of Liverpool. And I have specialized in working on interviewing and interrogation practices for at least the last, well, 20 years really, 12 years by research design. The reason I often have trouble answering that question is I also have a extensive background working in domestic abuse treatment, principally for perpetrators, but also intervention with young people and children and families. And I mentioned that because even though they’re separate areas, there’s a lot of overlap between the different areas that I’ve worked. 

Børge Hansen 

You and your husband, Lawrence, for people working in the field. If you search online for your names, quite quickly there’s another term coming up, orbit. And for people who dig a little bit further, as you say, you invested a lot in this.  So why in this field of interviewing, interrogation and all that, have you focused so much on rapport building? And why does the orbit method exist? How did it come about?  

Emily Alison 

Right. So basically, Lawrence and I were providing training and input to various police forces. And, you know, my background, which was much more therapeutic, Lawrence’s background, which is really around critical incident decision making, but also we both had elements of communication and in 2012 we had the opportunity through research funding obtained through the HIG, an organization in the US which stands for the High Value Detainee Interrogation Group that rolls off the tongue. 

Basically, that group was set up under the Obama administration to establish if we are not going to use enhanced interrogation techniques, otherwise known as torture, to secure information from terrorists, then what are we going to use and what science is available to help us solve that problem? 

So really the HIG is quite a unique organization in that it, well, for many reasons, it is very much focused on using scientific research and then operationalizing that for frontline practitioners. But also it’s a cooperative between agencies who don’t normally work together in such a way. So the CIA, the FBI and the Department of Defense. 

And interestingly, because it’s a global initiative, we were able to secure some funding to look at what is actually effective in that context. And that is how Orbit came about.  

Børge Hansen 

So you looked at past interrogations and interviews and then deciphered what worked and what didn’t work. Is that the case? 

Emily Alison 

Absolutely. So in this domain, I mean, that that’s kind of it sounds beautifully simple the way you say it as well. Because one of the issues in this area is that a lot of the research is it’s difficult to access this data. It’s very sensitive data. Agencies often feel very uncomfortable about allowing academic review of it. And so it was a real, again, a measure of the trust in Lawrence and I from our previous years of work with UK policing and their trust in us to allow us to look at actual interviews with terrorist suspects. So all of the data that Orbit is based on, it’s now been replicated on suspects of child sexual abuse and indecent image cases. 

It’s also been replicated with sexual assault victims by Sungwon Kim, who’s a previous South Korean police officer and researcher. And so it’s all real world data. And that’s actually quite unique in this kind of space where it’s not asking students to pretend to be terrorists and get a pizza voucher at the end.  

Børge Hansen 

So yeah, so that’s because that’s from my experience where we see that that’s typically how at least investigators or police officers are trained is on other students on more simulations rather on real. And then their training is based on not actual investigation or cases where you investigate actual cases, but rather simulate. What’s the difference here, you think? Because you say you’re based on your methods and then you have to train on them but on actual real world cases.  

Emily Alison 

Yeah, I think for me, it’s not to say that there’s no value to be gained from doing that more experimental research with students, because the advantage of that is you can highly control the variables that you’re looking at. But the problem is they aren’t actually, they don’t translate directly to the muddiness and the grayness and the complexity of that real world environment. So, for instance, when you’re looking at there’s a common technique that’s used in interviewing called funneling, which is that you start with a very general series of questions that open up someone’s account. So you say, basically tell me everything you can remember about those events at the weekend. And then you funnel down to more specific questions. 

Now the problem with that is if you’ve got someone who isn’t highly motivated to resist you, and by that I mean trained in counter interrogation potentially, you know, is going to actually stonewall you and give you complete silence. How will you ask for a general open account from someone and go more specific if that’s what you have in front of you? So it definitely tells you about how people communicate and gives you some principles to do that sort of transferable research. But for us, it was let’s get right in there into the mud and complexity of what this really looks like. Look at what interviewers are doing that is working to secure information. And we don’t mean just any information. We mean information that’s of intelligence value or evidential value. And then let’s also look at what they’re doing that’s getting in their own way. So what is actually stopping that flow of information? 

In very difficult, challenging context with highly resistant people, you know, people who may be being deceptive, who may, as I say, use total avoidance, you know, turn around and face the wall to people who will actually, you know, want to what we call backfooting. So like verbally attacking the interviewer and what they stand for as a way to distract and get out of questions. And student studies struggle to replicate the intensity and complexity of that environment that officers are actually working in.  

Børge Hansen 

So what would you say is the most crucial factor? Is it the interviewer or interviewee in terms of because, you know, you describe situations where maybe, you know, people are, as you say, stonewalling you or all the ways of distracting or voluntarily or involuntarily distracting you for actually progressing with your interview. Is it the interviewee that’s the challenge or is the interviewers?  

Emily Alison 

Well, I think that I wish I could say a definitive answer. I think it can be both. But for me, what’s the only factor that you can control? And that’s the interviewer. So it’s the interviewers obligation to manage their own behavior and manage the suspect’s behavior, the detainees behavior. You know, you don’t, so in other words, we know from the orbit model, we’re looking at instinctive patterns of communication. So ways that people respond to each other. That’s why you get this transfer to, you know, all sorts of relationships, how people get on with each other or not. 

Because we’re looking at that, we can help the interviewer manage pretty much any form of interviewee behavior. And that puts the responsibility on them where it should be. They’re the professional in the room. That is an obligation that sits with them. If the other person wants to be resistant and attempt to conceal or to be deceptive, that’s their choice. The interviewer needs to manage themselves. 

Børge Hansen  

So in the material that you guys were researching on, you have all sorts of situations, right? People being collaborative and not collaborative.  

Emily Alison 

Yeah, absolutely. So you can get someone who talks loads and is actually really cooperative in police interview or appears that way, but they aren’t actually answering any questions. So all of their responses are relatively vague. They try to distract with other topics. 

And that looks very different from some of the other situations I’ve described where they may be verbally aggressive or totally silent. You know, these are, these are intense interpersonal challenges that, you know, are pretty unique to that kind of environment. But people might be thinking about, you know, if you’re dealing with your teenager and they’re giving you complete silence or verbally attacking you because they don’t want to talk about what you’re trying to talk to them about. 

Børge Hansen 

So there’s some parallels. I have a teenage daughter, so I’m eager to learn about how to deal with the rolling of the eyes. my God, as she says. Tell me, so when you started this material, what was the first kind of science that you guys were onto? A structured, because orbit is a very structured method of dealing with various situations. And then, you know, when you’re researching and then seeing what works, it didn’t work. How did that come about? Because, you know, as you decipher through all of this, I remember you said earlier, it was several thousand interviews, right? So kind of deciphering and understanding what happens and because all people are different and situations are different. So how do you categorize and build a structure out of this?  

Emily Alison 

Yeah, absolutely. So we’ve coded over 2000 hours of interviews now, of suspect interviews. And when I say coded, we’re doing exactly that, just as you described, we’re looking for what’s the underlying system that sits beneath the styles of communication. And to my mind, like, it is really just putting a kind of structure around those ways in which we communicate and those things that help facilitate communication or build rapport and those things that damage it or get in the way. And so because of that, Orbit is giving you two things. It’s giving you a diagnostic tool where you can look at the person across from you and think, how does this person like to communicate? Do they like things totally upfront? Do they like a more warm social chit chat? Do they actually want the other person to take charge of the situation? 

So Orbit gives you that kind of interpersonal map and it also tells you how they will react to your response. So in that way, it can give you a strategy going forward. So if you have a issue or a problem that you’re encountering with a particular interviewee, then it gives you a recommendation for how to actually tackle that, that’s going to be suited to that person and their individual style. 

And that’s drawn from our sort of background, as I say, as psychologists in the foundation principles of social communication, of personality theory. So we’ve drawn on a lot of foundation fundamentals from the literature. So things like Timothy Leary’s interpersonal circumplex, looking at how people react to each other in communication and how that’s influenced by their personality that sits within the model. We’ve drawn on motivational interviewing, which is Rolnick and Miller, and humanistic theories of communication. So more Rogerian like that, which I mean, that’s quite an interesting thing to bring into this space, because Carl Rogers sort of theory, I call him the anti Freud is basically that, you know, the therapist or the person that the interviewer is not the expert on the interviewee. They are. They’re the ones with the information. So if you’re going to unlock that and get them to speak, then you need to understand them. It’s not about you learning a particular trick or a tactic or a deception that you can use on them to get them to talk. It’s you understanding them in such a way that they feel able to communicate. And I know that sounds a little bit, i mean, it’s great for parenting in a more adversarial space that can feel a bit like alien, I think, to officers. But what we’ve said is, what’s the goal of what you’re doing? It’s to get that information.  

Børge Hansen 

So you’re applying empathy to the situation, not being sympathetic or agreeing with the interviewer if he’s a suspect. But is applying empathy to the situation you’re in and then building rapport based on that?  

Well, absolutely. I mean, that’s one of the fundamental principles. We call them the here principles within the orbit model. The first one is honesty. The second one is empathy. And those two are probably the most fundamental to building a rapport based relationship with somebody where there’s trust. 

Emily Alison 

and understanding. And that’s what you’re aiming for. It’s not agreement. And just like you say, Berger, it’s not sympathy. You’re not in any way condoning, colluding, making excuses for the other person’s behavior or anything that they say. You’re attempting to understand their mindset, why they’ve chosen to act the way they have, what their core values are, what they care about. And it’s that curiosity. So that’s our sort of tagline is to say, lead your communication from a position of curiosity, not suspicion. 

Børge Hansen 

In the past investigators were trained by other investigators and if you failed or didn’t excel, well, then you’re not a people person then. That’s what they said. But you’re taking a very different approach here. This is much more structured than just being, you know, having tricks or being, you know, coached by others. This is a scientific way of, is this for everyone to learn?  

Emily Alison 

Yeah, this is, people will often say, well, rapport building is interpersonal skill is like something you either have or you don’t. And there is definitely a sort of baseline measure of whether you have those skills naturally or not. But with Orbit, as I say, because you basically have a roadmap for how to build rapport, what styles of communication are actually going to be effective, that anyone could actually learn. It’s effortful and it does require practice because sometimes you’re having to. So for me, for instance, I’m sure I’m probably giving away my Midwestern roots here, but I can be a bit bossy and I like to be chatty. So for me, that’s my comfort zone. And I know this about my personality. I hate conflict. I absolutely loathe it, but I can do it now. After 20 years of teaching and instructing and researching orbit, if you put me in a conflict situation, I know what I’m supposed to do. to be effective in that kind of zone. And that for me is gold dust because it’s not natural for everyone to be good at all of these different styles, but you can learn it. And for me, that’s a revelation to think, well, I don’t actually have to be uncomfortable in those situations because this is helping me understand what to do. 

Børge Hansen 

What separates_ So, as you said, it’s interpersonal skills. Who would typically struggle with learning and who excels at learning this? Because you guys have trained quite a lot of people now throughout the years. What’s the pattern here? Who excels and how do people struggle with this?  

Emily Alison 

Well, it’s a very individual thing. So one of the first things that we do with people is to and you can actually, we do have a link that we’ve just put on our website, which is www.orbinterviewing.com. It’s a link to a communication questionnaire that kind of tells you. So building self-awareness is the first thing, and it tells you, these are the things that you’re very good at, where you’re naturally comfortable, and these are the things you will struggle with, or where you will actually damage communication. So if you’re going to go bad, what does that look like for you? So that’s kind of where we start and that’s so different for everyone. I would say that when people have been indoctrinated into a system that is very formulaic that almost takes the humanness out of communication, that is often a problem. 

They’re so locked into procedure and structure, which is important. It’s important in these professional spaces to have structure. However, if that’s to the detriment of building communication and connection, then you’re going to massively limit the amount of information. Think about when people, if you go to the doctor’s office and they have a, you know, say they’re doing an assessment with you about potential issues around, I don’t know, diabetes or, you know, anything. It could be that they’re trying to assess. If they work through that as a checklist in a formulaic way, even if you have something you are concerned about or that you think might be true, you might hesitate or be reluctant to say it because it’s just quick, quick, quick onto the next question. Do you know the answer to that or not? And you don’t really have time to reflect or think or consider, actually I might disclose that even though it’s a bit sensitive. So I think we’re often trying to bring people back to their humanness in their communication.  

Børge Hansen 

So in some ways with the Orbit framework, to be a good interviewer, you have to start with yourself and be self-aware of who you are and how you’re perceived by others. Is that the way? 

Emily Alison  

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And I think, I mean, that’s, we could link that to what makes you good at empathy. So empathy is built in three stages, really. The first is, do you actually understand your own thoughts and feelings about things? And if you can’t articulate that, that’s already limiting. And then the second stage is, can you see things from other people’s point of view? If you were in their situation? 

How would it make you feel? What would you think? But we’re talking about third stage empathy, which is kind of what I call clinical cognitive empathy, which is if I were actually you. So to do that, I’d have to consider, I mean, I know a little bit about, you know, your background and where you grew up and things like that, but I have to try to imagine, well, if I had had those experiences, would I? 

Would I make those decisions the same things that you’ve done? And that’s why it’s so challenging. It is a definite expertise to be able to do that with people.  

Børge Hansen 

So by applying that, you know, advanced level of empathy, you are able to connect better with people and then that’s the means to an end. So one mean one way of getting, you know, building reports so that people can connect to you and then you can have a conversation. Is that it?  

Emily Alison 

Yeah, I mean, in one of the ways we often talk about this is that the other person feels seen by you. So it’s not actually, sometimes there’s this stereotype of rapport that it’s like, we’ll find, we’ll find some connect. Cause I grew up in like tiny remote snowy place. And I know so did you. I could try to sort of say, well, that makes us the same. you know, and isn’t that a connection? And that’s nice. And it is genuine. If I lied and I actually grew up in New York City and I tried to bluff you, that’s where it becomes a trick. Whereas what we’re saying with rapport building is it actually doesn’t matter whether you and I have similarity or not. I need to just try to understand things from your perspective. 

That’s easier if we have some shared experiences than if we don’t. But if we don’t, I can still put myself in that mindset of trying to see things from your point of view. And the point I was going to make about that was when you’re able to do that and do it well and see what someone cares about, values, what they think and feel about things, they feel seen by you. Now that’s important. 

Because it builds connection with relationships that matter to us that people were close to. But in a suspect interviewing environment, when someone feels seen by you, it’s harder for them to lie. And that is an advantage. So once they feel seen genuinely by you, it’s harder for them to be deceptive when you then ask those upfront direct questions.  

Børge Hansen 

You guys have, you know, in orbit there’s a, like a quadrant or a circle with four quadrants there. And then you put some animals to the different behavioral types. Could you just talk a little bit about that? Because you have everything from mice to dinosaurs there.  

Emily Alison 

Yeah. The animals is a slightly, it came about because I was doing this communication work with families after violence and trying to rebuild communication between parents and children. After there had been quite a lot of trauma in the household, but this was a way that I could teach even, you know, a five or six year old communicate sophisticated communication skills. So it would be a which animal is mommy most of the time? Is she a bossy lion? A shy mouse? Is she a cheeky monkey or a scary T rex? Which animal is daddy? Which animal are you? And I use the animals just as monikers, but then our professionals sort of grabbed hold of it and said, look, we love that. It makes it easy to remember because what you’re actually. 

Børge Hansen 

So the animals stuck.  

Emily Alison 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. People like it. But then we end up saying, well, you know, what are you? What area do you like? So like the way I describe myself, I’m lion monkey. So I like things to be warm and friendly and conversational. And I can be a bit bossy and like to be in charge. Just ask my teenager. But then other people like to be on receive. They like to listen. They like to be more in the background. And other people like the sort of T -Rex mode, which is, I mean, that’s definitely Lawrence. We always laugh because we’re total opposite. 

You know, he has no problem with conflict and dealing with that like really well, very assertive, confident, frank, forthright and direct. And those are all different interpersonal skills, some natural and some you have to work at. But that’s the sort of model that we start with, which is what’s your style? What’s the person across from you? What’s their style and what is actually going to match best?  

Børge Hansen 

It’s a way of navigating or categorizing different types of behaviors and then also how to respond.  

Emily Alison 

I would definitely say navigating because it does have a flow. So we’d say in the same conversation, you could find yourself moving around that framework, which is why we sort of say it’s that diagnostic initially, but then it’s a map. It’s a roadmap for where do I need to take this communication? So if I have to have a difficult conversation about something, I know I’m going to have to be frank and forthright. What response is that going to get? I can use the map to predict and then manage it. So it is quite empowering to think, you know, especially for those awkward communication situations, you have to ask people for money back or you have to tell, you know, I think we’ve got one in the book, which is you have to tell your dad that you know, he may have to give up his driving license, your elderly father. And like, that’s an awkward, difficult conversation. It’s quite emotional. How do you have that conversation and have it well so that it doesn’t damage your relationship with each other? 

Børge Hansen  

If we shift gears a little bit, so Orbit and rapport building is crucial for interpersonal connections. And then just recently we know that the UN has released a manual for investigative interviewing in criminal investigations. How do you see Orbit in the context of investigative interviewing. And we see a lot of the investigative interviewing practices started in the UK. There was some Nordic work being done. And then it’s now part of UN Mendes principles. The Manual has come. Where do you see Orbit? And how do you see the flow now for what’s happening in the world with more and more focus on these types of investigations. What’s your observations first of all? You’ve been in the field for quite some time now.  

Emily Alison 

Yeah, I think that for me it’s such an important movement to be taking place. And it does really feel like we’re at this sort of tipping point around interview practice globally. Because there’s more awareness of what is happening in various parts of the world. And I include North America in that and the use of more accusatorial, coercive or deceptive methods. So I’m sure you’ll be aware of the legislation that’s currently sort of sweeping its way across the US, outlying the use of deception in interviews with juveniles. I mean, that barely seems like a sentence you should have to utter which is basically the police shouldn’t be allowed to lie to children in interview. And yet that is something… Because one of the principles you had was being honest.  

Børge Hansen 

So basically, legislation allows you to actually break that connection with your suspect or witness.  

Emily Alison 

Well, absolutely. And to an extreme level around implying inconsistencies in their account that aren’t backed up by evidence implying the evidence exists you know or strengthening evidence that when that isn’t there you know seeing your DNAis at the scene and things like that when it’s not i mean you shouldn’t really be we would argue and even globally that there’s plenty of evidence to say you don’t need to do that at all to get information and in fact the fundamental difference, I think, with this is that, and which the Mendes principles bring about, is this removal of externally pressurizing tactics. That the point of an investigative interview is to investigate. So it’s not for me to seek a confession. So the goal is information and an account that I can then test against the evidence. So whether you lie to me or not, I don’t care. I will test whatever you say against the evidence that I have. And that surely is the definition of investigation. And yet, so I think there is this issue where in more accusatory methods, there’s these externally pressurizing tactics that are used to try to secure confession. And that to me is the problem. I mean that’s the fundamental issue. So then you’ve asked me, where does Orbit fit in this framework?  

Børge Hansen 

I’m sorry, but you know, I think, so this is my personal experience, I think we as humans, you know, we are biased and then we, when we, you know, think one and one adds up to become two, we kind of go for it. And then that’s, you know, when you talk about accusatorial methods, that’s where you kind of say, I believe that your guilt is I’m seeking out to prove that right. And that’s an intuitive way for us humans, because seeing is believing and we have a bias and you know, it’s intuitive. So what you’re, you know, working on investigative imaging that’s kind of more, it’s in some way counterintuitive.  

Emily Alison 

In some ways in that you, well, you aren’t allowed to make up your mind until you know, until you genuinely know, until there is no other alternative. And sometimes, you’re not going to achieve that level. It’s on the balance of evidence. The whole point is if you’re being objective and coming from that position of curiosity rather than suspicion, then you should be able to suspend that bias that or at least try to mitigate it. Cause you’re right. You know, it’s, it’s often unconscious. You can’t help, but think what you think about the situation, but we’re trying to put in principles that actually counter that natural bias and give you some objectivity to operate from because we know countless cases where you could get 100 people to look at it and 98 % of them would say, I know what’s happened here. And it’s not actually accurate. It’s not the truth. I mean, in fact, we were just out in California doing some training and presenting at a symposium around interview practice. 

And at the same symposium were the couple involved in the American nightmare case, which again, you know, is really popular on Netflix. That’s loaded. People watched it. But that case is a case where I think you could show, you know, a hundred people that case and they’d think, I, you know, that looks suspicious to me. I don’t think that’s true. But instead of operating on what’s going on here, the investigators decided. 

I know what’s happened. I’m 100 % certain what’s happened and I’m going to pursue that to the exclusion of any other potential explanation. And the consequences of that were catastrophic and heartbreaking. So I think for me, it’s that, and to be fair, that’s not their natural mindset. It’s actually one that’s been trained into them to decide and then to pursue, to pursue that narrative, that confession, you know, it’s literally built into the system, but has no science behind it. So for us, it’s part of orbit. I mean, you asked me how sort of orbit fits into this. And for me, it is that it is bringing a framework for investigators. If we’re going to say, stop using this method that is confession driven, that is bias, that is led by suspicion and confirmation bias instead of science. Then what are we going to do instead if we’re going to take that away from you, which I agree, you know, the Mendes principles is an important platform to say these are the operating principles. But investigators will say, well, how am I supposed to get in there then? How am I supposed to get what you say I’m there to get, they won’t tell me anything. And what we’ve demonstrated with Orbit is using these kinds of communication strategies generates internal pressure. So in other words, if I haven’t done anything, I’m innocent and I’m in a police interview. 

I might just naturally feel external pressure. I might feel intimidated by that environment and a bit frightened, but I won’t feel internal pressure because I haven’t done anything. So inside I’ll only tell you everything that I can because I haven’t done it. Whereas if I am guilty, I might feel the same natural external pressure, but the Orbit principles try to mitigate that external pressure by creating honesty, empathy. 

You know, all these sorts of principles. And instead it generates internal pressure, which is that I’m finding it very hard to continue to be deceptive or to conceal the actual truth of what’s happened. So, and that absolutely is how it should be. It should be that I don’t tell you something because you pressured it out of me. I tell you because I feel enough internal pressure that I feel I have to explain myself. That should be why someone confesses, not because you force it out of them.  

Børge Hansen 

Would you say that Orbit is a scientific based method about rapport building, but it’s also investigations. You have to kind of unlock your own bias and then look at the case from many different sides and have an open mind approach to everything. Is it a scientific approach for doing interviews on a whole? Do you think it’s the solution for? I would. 

Emily Alison 

Well, I would absolutely say, I mean, it’s not an interview structure models like, you know, sort of piece or frameworks like that, that are sort of breaking up the chunks of an interview, the different phases of an interview. And in fact, what we’ve said is the issue is that rapport was kind of often stereotyped as what you do at the start. You know, I ask you how you slept, I ask you if you want a cup of tea, and that that is such a simplistic view of rapport. That is not what we’re talking about when we talk about rapport. We’re talking about actually building genuine trust and connection with the other person. And that is something that is relevant to every stage of the interview. So whether you are in the initial stages of getting an open account, whether you are actually presenting evidence to the individual, we’ve said rapport always massers to the interview. And in fact, a lot of the offensive areas that we work in, it’s not just the offense in front of you. It may be all of the other behaviors that this individual is involved in, whether that’s terrorism, indecent image, rings of offenders, et cetera. So my attitude when we’re training with police officers just to say, do you want them for the thing you have in front of you? Or do you want them for everything that they are actually involved in? And that that that’s what we’re aiming for. And if you want that, then you don’t get to burn the rapport bridge. You don’t get to do the Hollywood slam it on the table and gotcha as psychologically satisfying as that is to the investigator. You just don’t get to have that moment. 

You know, you can have it outside the room, but you can’t have it in the room.  

Børge Hansen 

You talked a little bit about accusatorial methods earlier, and then we talked about the Mendez principles. If you go back to what kind of cultural shifts do you see across the world right now? Because I know you train in Europe, but you’re training in the States and probably elsewhere in the world. How do you see the world changing now? 

And where do you see these kind of techniques? Or are there environments where people struggle more with this because they train more for other ways of working?  

Emily Alison 

Yeah, I think, I mean, I sort of described it as a tipping point. And that kind of means we’re at the crest of the wave. So it’s quite frothy. There’s a little bit of a global bun fight going on between these sort of different approaches. I feel like that’s natural. However, you know, what I would hope and certainly aspire to is that science will win, which is that I understand there’s a reluctance to let go of historically used techniques or methods that people feel, well, that’s worked for me. And you know, it’s very, it’s, you have to accept accusatorial or coercive methods whilst they, you know, we hear that and know that it runs the risk of false confession. It’s also gotten plenty of true confessions out of people. So people feel reinforced by that and think it’s, well, it’s worked. So, but, but for me, it’s sort of supporting people to say, you know, embrace that advance, embrace what knowledge is telling us, you know, change as the knowledge base is changing. And you would do that in any form of policing. So whether it’s digital forensic analysis, it’s blood spatter analysis, it’s, you know, DNA technology, as these things have become more and more advanced and refined, practice has changed with it. Why wouldn’t we do that with interviewing. Why would we just say, well, you’re either a person or you’re not, you know, we know way too much about how to do this job well and effectively to still pretend that we just have to wing it on the basis of, you know, what somebody’s been doing for 20 years. There’s enough science to tell it to point us in the right direction, I think.  

Børge Hansen 

So how do if if a man, a police officer investigator, I mean, or even a parent understanding, okay, I’m going about this in the wrong way. I’m curious to learn about this science -based proven method of how to build rapport and investigate better. How do I get started? What’s your advice to get started? People are curious about this.  

Emily Alison 

Well, as I say, it is part of that self -awareness. It is understanding the principles objectively. That’s the main thing for me is that it does remove your emotional impulses out of it. And it says this, you’re still allowed to have those emotions, but they might not actually be helping you achieve your goal. So for instance, say you want your teenager, I mean, this has been a horrendous time for young people as well, kind of post pandemic has made them feel very isolated, avoidant. If what you’re wanting is to sort of encourage your child to, you know, go out, embrace the world, go to university or whatever, you have to have that conversation from a position of trying to understand them, not just ordering them and telling them what to do. So for that purpose, you have to actually be prepared to put the work in and the patience to do things this way, understanding that it will give you that long -term connection, bond, trust between you and your child or you and whoever it is that you’re trying to build that relationship with. And that is massively effortful. So I think that’s probably a good place to start is of thinking who actually do I care about enough that I want to put this work in? To being able to do this in this way, because it is effortful and there will be slip ups. I mean, Lawrence and I have been doing this for 20 years and we still will regularly mess up and also tell each other when we mess up. So also I think that’s the other thing is like, if you are trying to do the right thing and do this in the right way as much as possible, it will protect you from those excesses. And that’s my main thing. For people using it individually, that’s great. For people using it professionally, you should have a system or organization that supports you doing things in the right way, not teaches you how to do them the wrong way, and then you have to overcome it or undo it. 

Børge Hansen 

Good to hear that you guys are human as well and then you can miss that because I know it’s hard work to learn this and you will make mistakes here and there. And then as you say, with the right training and surroundings, you could learn from your mistakes and improve. So what’s next for the Alisons now? What’s up?  

Emily Alison 

I think we’ve not had a proper holiday for about five years, so maybe that. 

But it doesn’t look near on the horizon. I think for us, we have a number of things where we are tackling, in particular, these accusatorial methods used principally in North America, also elsewhere in the world. And we feel like we, without even quite trying, we’ve ended up squared up in that fight is important to me as a citizen of the world, but also of the United States by birth to try to promote that positive change. I think it pains me to see, this is what I said at this conference in California. I said, please don’t misunderstand that we are about you doing this or changing your style because of the person across from you. 

That’s important in terms of how you treat someone who is actually in your custody. But oftentimes the person across from these people have done horrific things, horrendous things to other human beings. But my issue is to also say this is about you and how you see yourself and you surely should not reduce yourself, compromise yourself, undermine yourself for a job where you are trying to do the right thing, you know, see justice done, be the hero, and suddenly it’s turning you into the villain. So for me, it is really a bit of a mission. I think I said after that, I said, I feel like for the last 20 years, we’ve maybe been tilting at windmills. Well, we’re about to blow the windmill up. So I feel quite optimistic about that. 

Børge Hansen 

This is really cool. Well, I wish you all and ourselves best of luck in Europe and supporting you and on the mission that you guys have. I think it’s the right mission. I think we’re all cheering and supporting you all the way. Thank you, Emily, for being on the podcast and good luck.  

Emily Alison 

Thank you very much. And same to you, Børge. Thank you.