Transcription

Ivar Fahsing :
Bonsoir à tous. Bienvenue au sommet de l’interview Davidhorn ici à Copenhague et à ce podcast en direct. Je vous souhaite également la bienvenue, Laurence Alison. C’est pour cela qu’ils sont étranges, n’est-ce pas ? Je m’appelle Ivar Fahsing et c’est un honneur de vous accueillir ce soir. Nous sommes passés par, la discussion Laurence sur, je vais directement à la balle.

Laurence Alison : (00:17)
Nous le ferons.

Speaker 2 (00:27)
L’un de vos excellents produits, sur lequel j’ai fait des recherches pendant des années, s’appelle Orbit. Il s’agit d’une approche d’entretien basée sur le rapport. Et comme vous le savez, l’approche scientifique dominante en matière d’entretien s’appelle le modèle PEACE.

Est-ce la mort de la paix ?

Speaker 1 (00:44)
Non, absolument pas. Et si je disais quelque chose dans ce sens, je me ferais probablement tirer dessus par Andy Smith, qui est le chef de file national en ce moment. Oui, je pense qu’il y a une certaine confusion. Il ne s’agit absolument pas d’un modèle compétitif. Et je pense qu’il est très proche de PEACE. Si vous lisez la documentation originale de PEACE, il n’y a rien qui soit en contradiction avec ce que nous enseignons. Je pense que ce qui est arrivé à PEACE, c’est qu’une partie du programme n’a pas été enseignée telle qu’elle avait été écrite à l’origine.

Et parfois, lorsque nous formons les gens, certains officiers traitent cela de manière très mécanique. Vous devez faire ceci, vous devez faire cela, vous devez faire cela et ainsi de suite. Jusqu’à la traduction inappropriée de ce que l’on appelle la phase de défi, où parfois, comme nous l’avons vu dans certains entretiens au Royaume-Uni, ils vont jusqu’au bout, puis soudainement ils jettent tout sur la phase de défi. Mais cela ne figure pas dans la version originale de PEACE.

Je ne pense donc pas qu’il s’agisse d’un modèle compétitif. Je pense qu’il est largement sympathique et conforme à ce qui est enseigné dans PEACE. Et PEACE, tel que je le conçois, est en grande partie une approche de planification de toute façon, concernant les phases qu’il est important de mener et de traverser, tandis qu’Orbit est très, très spécifique. Il permet aux officiers de police de comprendre les compétences requises pour traiter avec les gens lorsqu’ils sont résistants ou difficiles.

non pas pour les tromper, les persuader, les cajoler ou les manipuler, mais pour rendre cette interaction raisonnable, proportionnée et équitable. Ainsi, si quelqu’un vous parle, vous n’avez pas besoin d’Orbit parce que cela fonctionne. C’est lorsque vous rencontrez une résistance ou une difficulté que ces compétences sont importantes.

Speaker 2 (02:15)
L’église que nous entendons ici n’est pas pour la PAIX.

Intervenant 1 (02:19)
Ce n’est pas pour PEACE là-dedans. Vous savez, PEACE existe depuis longtemps. Il semble fonctionner parfaitement bien pour la police britannique, il n’y a donc aucune raison de le changer. Mais pour moi, il n’y a rien dans ce que nous enseignons qui soit incohérent ou incompatible avec ce qui est décrit dans PEACE.

Speaker 2 (02:35)
Vous êtes si poli, Laurence. Je disais que pendant la pause, il manque quelque chose. Pourrais-je suggérer qu’il s’agit peut-être d’un turbo booster ?

Speaker 1 (02:46)
Vous êtes

en essayant de me faire dire du mal de la PAIX.

Speaker 2 (02:48)
Plus que cela, comme vous l’avez dit, d’accord, glissons-le alors et disons, qu’est-ce qu’Orbit ne livre pas ?

Speaker 1 (02:54)
Ne pas livrer. Je pense que cela n’aborde pas une partie très importante de ce qui est important dans un entretien, à savoir la prise de décision. Vous savez, les processus cognitifs sur la façon dont vous gérez un entretien, les types de questions, les choses comme l’utilisation stratégique des preuves, ces éléments, la divulgation avant l’entretien, la préparation des déclarations, tous ces éléments, dont nous savons tous qu’ils sont importants. Vous savez, une grande partie de votre travail, Ivar, et les éléments de prise de décision. Il ne s’agit pas d’un modèle de prise de décision.

Il s’agit d’un modèle très spécifique sur la manière de traiter les gens différemment, en fonction des différentes formes de résistance. Enfin, pour en revenir à PEACE, ce que PEACE n’enseigne pas aux officiers, c’est la manière de traiter les gens lorsqu’ils sont difficiles. Et c’est ce sur quoi nous nous sommes concentrés.

Speaker 2 (03:35)
Il s’agit d’une clarification très utile, car il existe différents modèles et vous vous demandez parfois s’il faut prendre A ou B. Ici, vous avez besoin de deux pilules.

Speaker 1 (03:45)
Oui, comme vous le savez, nous avons suivi des formations dans le monde entier, et les forces de police utilisent des choses différentes, et nous en avons déjà parlé. Vous savez, il y a beaucoup de confusion et si j’étais un officier de police de première ligne recevant une formation aux entretiens, je ne saurais pas ce qui se passe parce que c’est un peu un mélange de tout et n’importe quoi. Vous savez, je pense qu’il y a trop d’idées dans le pot et je conseillerais à la police d’interroger tous les modèles qu’on lui vend.

Sur quoi vous fondez-vous pour m’enseigner cela ? Sur quelles données se base-t-il ? Quel est le type de données sur lesquelles elles se fondent ? Lorsque vous faites cette affirmation, dites-moi sur quoi elle se fonde. Où sont les preuves ? Je veux dire, de la même manière que vous ne prendriez pas une pilule ou une intervention médicale avec cela, je suppose, en sachant qu’elle a fait l’objet de tests rigoureux. Oui, c’est vrai.

Vous savez, je voudrais savoir ce que je m’apprête à mettre dans mon corps et que cela a été testé. Tous les modèles existants ne reposent donc pas sur des preuves solides.

Speaker 2 (04:40)
Absolument pas.

Si vous pensez à Orbit, nous discuterons du fait que je pense que dans certaines communautés, dans certains pays, il fonctionne très bien, il est très populaire, en particulier aux Pays-Bas et au Royaume-Uni, et vous venez d’être présenté en Norvège, je suppose qu’en Irlande, il y a quelques bureaux que je connais qui l’apprécient vraiment. Y a-t-il des endroits où vous pensez que c’est plus nécessaire ?

Ensuite, d’autres

Speaker 1 (05:03)
Je pense que les États-Unis en ont besoin parce que, historiquement, ils ont utilisé d’autres méthodes qui ne sont pas fondées sur des preuves, qui sont endémiques et qui sont en quelque sorte ancrées dans l’ADN de leur mode de fonctionnement. Et je pense que ce véhicule est en train de se retourner lentement. Mais si vous utilisez la technique A depuis 60 ou 70 ans et qu’il s’agit de l’approche la plus efficace, vous ne pouvez pas vous permettre d’en faire autant.

Je pense qu’il est difficile de convaincre les gens de l’importance de ce modèle, simplement parce qu’il existe depuis longtemps. Je pense qu’il est difficile de convaincre les gens de ce message. Cela dit, nous travaillons avec le procureur de l’État de Californie, un homme charmant appelé Vern Pearson, qui est très sensible à cette question. Nous nous rendons sur place chaque année et nous organisons des formations. Ils essaient d’étendre cette activité à l’ensemble de la région. Et, vous savez, c’est, c’est en train de se transformer lentement au point que je pense qu’il y aura très peu d’activités de formation.

de ces autres techniques utilisées dans l’État de Californie, au moins. Nous travaillons également avec le Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC). Ils sont très réactifs et mon expérience aux États-Unis avec le HIG, High Valley Detainee Derogation Group, est assez positive. Ils sont sceptiques à juste titre, mais ils sont très réceptifs.

Speaker 2 (06:14)
pour vous demander, parce que vous voyagez aussi beaucoup à travers le monde. Je me disais simplement qu’il y a peut-être une question culturelle sous-jacente ici qui est au-delà ou qui n’est pas nécessairement liée à des entretiens plus poussés, est-ce que nous prenons des leçons de ce pays ou non ? Qui êtes-vous pour me donner des leçons ?

Speaker 1 (06:31)
Peut-être, oui, peut-être. En fait, nous ne rencontrons pas vraiment cela lorsque nous nous rendons dans d’autres pays. J’ai été surprise de voir à quel point les gens sont réceptifs. Il peut y avoir un peu de résistance. Je ne peux pas citer de noms, n’est-ce pas ? Je me souviens d’un groupe militaire avec lequel nous étions, il y a quelques années, et je me souviens d’être entré dans la pièce, et je me suis dit, mon Dieu, ça va être un cauchemar. Ils étaient une trentaine, tous tatoués, les bras croisés, et on pouvait voir des gens très expérimentés.

Et tout à fait raisonnablement, ils regardaient un psychologue barbu et se disaient : « Est-ce qu’il sait ? C’est assez juste, vous savez. Mais nous avons renversé la situation assez rapidement en parlant de ce dont nous étions en train de parler, en étant respectueux et en permettant à la discussion de s’exprimer et bla, bla, bla. Je n’ai trouvé cela nulle part. J’ai trouvé un scepticisme sain, mais globalement une réceptivité. Mais pour en revenir à votre remarque sur PEACE et PACE, je pense qu’au Royaume-Uni,

La faiblesse de nos agents en matière d’interrogatoire réside dans le manque de persévérance, de rigueur et de questions justes et impartiales, mais fermes. Je pense qu’il y a un peu de cela, qu’il s’agisse d’un retour de balancier de PACE où il y a une sorte de réticence à, vous savez, sonder un peu plus, peu importe ce que c’est, je ne sais pas. Mais il est certain que je constate que certains de nos officiers britanniques posent une question et qu’ils vont

Je pense que si la personne a donné une réponse incomplète, vous avez le droit de l’explorer un peu ou s’il y a une divergence dans ce qui a été dit, cela n’a pas de sens, vous avez dit ceci, mais d’un autre côté, nous avons ceci. s’il y a une divergence dans ce qui a été dit, cela n’a pas de sens, vous avez dit ceci, mais d’un autre côté, nous avons cela. Je pense donc qu’il y a un peu d’hésitation dans certaines de nos forces de l’ordre britanniques et je ne sais pas si cela est associé à PEACE.

Je ne peux pas le dire, mais il y a certainement cet élément.

Speaker 2 (08:17)
La raison pour laquelle je vous ai posé cette question culturelle, c’est que vous êtes Asbjørn Rachlew, un ami à nous deux. Nous faisions de la formation à Beyrouth, financée en partie par l’Union européenne. Deux hauts fonctionnaires sont donc venus inspecter cette salle de formation pour s’assurer que l’argent était dépensé comme prévu. Il s’agissait d’un juge allemand et d’un ancien juge français de la Cour suprême.

Au début, ils observaient de loin et étaient un peu réservés. Mais au fil des jours, ils se sont de plus en plus impliqués et se sont montrés enthousiastes. Je me suis dit que ça avait l’air vraiment bien. Et puis nous sommes allés dîner et ils étaient tellement, ils étaient tous dans le coup, oh, c’est vraiment bon. Après quelques verres de vin, j’ai dit :  » N’est-ce pas ?

N’est-ce pas fascinant ? Nous sommes ici à Beyrouth. Le juge allemand et le juge français sont fascinés par ce que nous mettons en œuvre ici à Beyrouth. Et ce n’est le cas dans aucun de vos pays. Dans le taxi qui nous ramène à l’hôtel,

Je pense que c’est un Allemand qui a dit : « Ivar, vous savez sûrement pourquoi. Vous devez savoir pourquoi il n’a été adopté ni en France ni en Allemagne. a dit, non, aidez-moi.

Speaker 1 (09:28)
britannique.

C’est une bonne chose.

Speaker 2 (09:29)
Wah agwin, c’est même un taux

Speaker 1 (09:31)
Je vais vous raconter une autre histoire. Non pas qu’il s’agisse d’une interview pertinente, mais nous avons développé un outil pour étudier la gestion des ressources dans les affaires d’images indécentes. Comme vous le savez, il y a tellement d’individus qui téléchargent, distribuent ou possèdent des images indécentes au Royaume-Uni et partout ailleurs qu’il est impossible d’enquêter sur chacun d’entre eux. Vous devez donc enquêter sur ceux qui vous semblent les plus probables.

impliqué dans un délinquant de contact également. Nous aimerions tous les prendre, mais nous ne pouvons pas. Nous devons nous concentrer sur ceux qui sont réellement des délinquants de contact. Quoi qu’il en soit, pendant de nombreuses années, nous avons développé un outil qui a vu le jour dans le Kent. Je travaillais avec un officier de police, Matthew Long, un homme charmant. Il s’est retiré de la protection de l’enfance, mais il est monté en grade au sein de la NCA. C’est un homme charmant, qui a fait son doctorat avec moi. Quoi qu’il en soit, pendant de nombreuses années, nous avons développé cet outil et il était très bon. Il était très précis. Il permettait d’identifier correctement les individus qui étaient beaucoup plus susceptibles d’être des délinquants de contact.

tout en identifiant correctement les personnes qui ne sont pas susceptibles d’être contactées par les vendeurs. Nous avons ensuite réalisé un grand projet. Lorsque nous étions dans l’Union européenne, nous avons été financés par Fighting International. Nous avons reçu des fonds suffisants pour étudier la question en Estonie, en Espagne et dans d’autres pays. Certains d’entre vous connaissent peut-être les travaux de Hofstede sur la variabilité culturelle. La question a été posée,

dans ces différents pays, peut-être que les pédophiles sont différents, vous savez, donc il peut y avoir des différences entre le Royaume-Uni et l’Estonie et ce désespoir. J’ai dit : « Non, vous gaspillez votre argent. L’outil sera le même où que nous allions. Je vous garantis que l’outil sera le même. Quoi qu’il en soit, nous avons obtenu des données de l’Estonie et de tous ces autres pays. Et sans surprise, l’outil est à peu près exactement le même. Il y a de minuscules variations. Mais chaque pays voulait qu’il soit appelé. Vous savez,

ERAT si c’était en Estonie ou SPERAT si c’était en Espagne ou FERAT si c’était en France parce qu’ils voulaient être propriétaires de leur propre outil. Je pense donc qu’il y a un peu de politique et vous savez, peu importe, mais en tant que scientifique, vous ne vous en souciez pas, c’est comme ça. C’est comme avec l’affaire Orbit. Ce n’est pas que nous avons fait des études sur la façon de parler aux enfants victimes d’abus sexuels en Corée du Sud. Le modèle est le même.

honnêteté, empathie, autonomie, évocation, intérêt pour les valeurs, les pensées et les croyances. Les formes de résistance ou de difficulté peuvent être différentes, comme l’embarras, la honte et la peur. Mais si vous vous adressez aux gens de manière appropriée, si vous êtes persistant, patient, capable d’être polyvalent, authentique, intéressé, à l’écoute, vous obtiendrez davantage d’informations.

Speaker 2 (11:53)
Absolument. Je suppose que le seuil à partir duquel on peut parler d’injustice est un peu différent. En Angleterre, vous ne pouvez pas poser une question deux fois. Au Vietnam, ils sont heureux que vous les battiez, mais vous ne les battez pas si fort.

Speaker 1 (11:59)
Que voulez-vous dire ?

Nous en avons parlé pendant la pause, l’idée de poser une question deux fois. Je suis d’accord. Je ne pense pas que vous puissiez poser deux fois la même question. Mais je pense que ce que nous faisons, et j’en parlais il y a une minute au Royaume-Uni, c’est que nous sommes réticents à poser une question à laquelle il n’a pas été répondu. Et je ne le ferais pas. Si vous me disiez quelque chose maintenant et que je ne comprenais pas ce que vous avez dit, ce n’est pas parce que vous êtes trompeur, mais je voudrais en savoir plus. Trompeur. Et vous ne penseriez pas que je suis oppressif en le demandant. Si je vous posais toujours la même question, ce serait oppressif.

Mais si je n’ai pas exploré correctement ce que vous avez dit dans un esprit de curiosité et d’intérêt, alors je pense que c’est tout à fait normal. Oui, c’est vrai. Oui, c’est vrai.

Speaker 2 (12:42)
Respect.

vous vous êtes très tôt engagé avec des praticiens dans votre recherche, ce qui est quelque chose qui vous accompagne encore en tant que chercheur, que vous avez une relation très étroite et de confiance avec les praticiens.

Speaker 1 (12:56)
Dieu, 1991 Je crois que j’ai obtenu mon diplôme de premier cycle. Est-ce exact ? Quoi qu’il en soit, c’était à l’époque de la sortie du Silence des agneaux.

et tous les jeunes branchés voulaient devenir profileurs de délinquants. J’ai travaillé avec David Cantor, un homme intéressant. Nous n’y reviendrons pas. Pendant quelques années, j’étais à l’université de Surrey et tous les jeunes branchés voulaient devenir profileurs de délinquants. J’ai commencé à me pencher sur la question et je me suis rendu compte que la plupart de ces études n’étaient que des conneries. Je sortais de trois ans d’études universitaires, d’une adhésion rigoureuse aux méthodes scientifiques et de l’arrivée sur les lieux d’un crime de gens qui se promenaient et qui disaient : « Réfléchissez »,

C’est un postier qui déteste sa mère ou je ne sais quelle autre connerie. David, béni soit-il, est arrivé alors que j’étais encore étudiante en master, et lui a donné une énorme pile de documents. C’est ce qui a développé mon intérêt pour les entretiens et la prise de décision. Il s’agissait d’une pile de documents de cette taille. Et je n’étais qu’un étudiant en master. J’étais beaucoup plus jeune que lui. Il m’a dit qu’il s’agissait d’une opération d’infiltration et qu’il y avait tout ce qu’il fallait.

Chaque lettre, chaque appel téléphonique et chaque rencontre entre un agent secret appelé Lizzie James et la cible, Colin Stagg. Et ce, dans le sillage du meurtre de Rachel Nichell, dont la plupart d’entre vous sont bien trop jeunes pour se souvenir, assassinée à Wimbledon Common sous les yeux de son fils de trois ans. Il s’agissait d’une affaire de meurtre horrible. Un psychologue, prétendument spécialiste du profilage des délinquants, avait établi un profil très ambigu et vague, qui aurait pu correspondre à n’importe qui.

Colin Stagg a été arrêté pour cette affaire, il a été interrogé de manière approfondie et une opération d’infiltration a été mise en place dans le cadre de laquelle une femme de 30 ans a été infiltrée sous le nom de code de Lizzie James qui, en gros, et c’est une version très courte de l’histoire, a développé une relation avec Colin Stagg et s’est en quelque sorte offerte à lui s’il avouait ce délit, ce qu’il n’a en fait jamais fait.

Speaker 2 (14:46)
Parce que

qu’il était assez homme pour elle.

Speaker 1 (14:48)
Oui, exactement. J’ai donc analysé toute cette opération d’infiltration et j’en ai été consterné. Elle était clairement coercitive, corrompue, avec tous les biais de confirmation auxquels on peut s’attendre. Le profil était faux. Quoi qu’il en soit, l’affaire n’a jamais été portée devant les tribunaux. Elle a été out of the voire d’erre par le juge en chef Ognor, qui l’a qualifiée de conduite la plus grossière et d’enquête policière trop zélée.

Ce qui était intéressant, c’est que du point de vue de la prise de décision, il y avait de tout. C’était du genre, voici le type que nous pensons qu’il est. Et nous chercherons toutes les preuves pour le confirmer. Et l’entretien était mauvais. Et vous pouviez clairement démontrer statistiquement que ce type était dirigé, clairement dirigé. Et mon début de carrière a été orienté, j’ai eu une

Je me suis rendu compte que je m’étais fait un nom lorsque j’ai plaidé dans diverses affaires judiciaires et que, dans l’ouest de York, on m’a dit : « Vous savez comment on vous appelle, vous ? J’ai répondu que non. Ils m’ont dit qu’on vous appelait l’homme à la hache de guerre. Et j’ai demandé ce que cela signifiait. Parce qu’on vous fait intervenir lorsqu’un tas de faux psychologues ont inventé un tas de conneries et on vous fait intervenir pour détruire, redresser ces théories douteuses. Et c’est ce que j’ai fait au début des années 90.

Ce fut une bonne expérience, car elle m’a fait prendre conscience de la rigueur dont il faut faire preuve si l’on veut contribuer à quelque chose de significatif et de pratique et aider la police. Il vaut mieux que ce soit ce que vous dites que c’est. Et malheureusement, en psychologie, les études expérimentales sont censées être bonnes. Comme nous le savons tous, la psychologie a fait l’objet d’un grand débat il y a quelque temps sur ses mérites, son applicabilité et sa reproductibilité.

Au début des années 90, une grande partie de mes recherches visait à disséquer les problèmes posés par d’autres théories. Je ne voulais pas devenir un profileur de délinquants, mais cela m’intéressait. Mais je me suis vite rendu compte que je venais d’obtenir un diplôme à l’University College de Londres, qui était très rigoureux. Et qu’il y avait toutes ces choses bidon qui se passaient. Mais c’était au début des années 90.

Speaker 2 (16:43)
Oui, exactement. J’ai eu la chance de déjeuner avec David, parce que je me demandais alors s’il était possible pour moi, en tant qu’officier de police norvégien, de faire le Master, et nous avons appris qu’il voulait…

Speaker 1 (16:54)
.

Speaker 2 (16:58)
un avertisseur de ce que l’on attendrait de nous s’ils investissaient dans le maître. Et il a dit, je me souviens qu’il a dit quelque chose comme ça. Souvenez-vous, les gars, ce que vos patrons veulent que vous rameniez, c’est une belle valise bien rangée. Et à l’intérieur, il y a un gros bouton vert « qui l’a fait ». Et il m’a dit : « Sachez que ce n’est pas ce que je vais vous donner ». J’ai dit, eh bien, où allez-vous nous donner alors ? Et il m’a répondu,

Eh bien, je pense que ce que nous pouvons vous offrir, c’est de vous aider à faire en sorte qu’au fil du temps, vous aidiez la police norvégienne à réfléchir différemment à ses problèmes. Je pense que c’était un très bon conseil.

Speaker 1 (17:36)
C’est un esprit brillant qui a créé un nouveau domaine de la psychologie, la psychologie d’investigation, qui n’existait pas auparavant. Il a apporté de nouvelles idées à ce domaine et il y a eu des progrès, comme vous le savez, dans le domaine du profilage. Il y a maintenant des études qui peuvent nous aider avec le profilage géographique, il y a la gestion des risques et David est un personnage maladroit, mais je le respecte et je l’admire.

vous savez

Speaker 2 (18:01)
Je suis personnellement très reconnaissant de ses encouragements et de la chaleur qu’il m’a apportée pendant ce temps. Je me souviens aussi d’une autre chose que vous avez dite, vous avez fait cette recherche sur le profilage des délinquants et le retour à la prise de décision. Je me souviens de ce que David a dit : « Quelle est l’alternative si le profilage des délinquants ne fonctionne pas, que devriez-vous faire à la place ? Et il a répondu : une meilleure réflexion.

Vous devez absolument vous améliorer dans ce que vous faites. Et parce qu’en général, vous supervisez des choses assez évidentes et les cas que nous examinons, il y a des informations évidentes que vous supervisez ou que vous avez perdues ou que vous n’avez pas traitées ou… Donc c’était l’autre chose, savoir, renforcer la façon dont vous pensez. Je crois que vous avez également écrit cela, vous et lui, dans un document de recherche.

pour l’administration centrale. Je ne vais pas vous citer, mais je pense que c’était vers la fin des années 90, 1998, 1999. La raison pour laquelle je m’en souviens si bien est que vous avez dit : « Je fais des recherches sur la prise de décision avec mes brillants superviseurs, Per Anders, Gunnar Öhl et Karl Ask à l’université de Göteborg, avec qui vous travailliez à l’époque. Je me suis dit que nous avions besoin d’un modèle.

pour savoir comment penser en tant que détective, tout comme le modèle PEACE ou l’orbite, que vous devez disposer d’une sorte de système pour vous aider. Qu’allez-vous faire alors ? Eh bien, c’est une question assez générique. C’est une citation tirée de l’un de vos rapports qui m’a donné cette idée. Quel pourrait être ce point de départ ? B. Et je pense que c’est un peu comme ça.

Une bonne réflexion se caractérise par une recherche approfondie d’une alternative sans privilégier celle qui est déjà présente à l’esprit.

Speaker 1 (19:44)
Cool, vraiment bien.

Speaker 2 (19:46)
Il y a un nom complet dessus.

Speaker 1 (19:47)
Je suis très impressionné par cela. Ai-je écrit ? Vous avez une bien meilleure mémoire de mon passé que moi.

Speaker 2 (19:52)
Je dois dire, Laurence, que je suis très reconnaissant pour cette phrase car il y a quelques détectives norvégiens de premier plan dans la salle. Je pense qu’ils peuvent également témoigner que cela est devenu une sorte de pièce maîtresse de la partie décisionnelle dans la version norvégienne de la formation PEACE. Il s’agit donc d’identifier activement ces explications alternatives des preuves, des histoires différentes correspondant aux mêmes preuves ?

Et pouvons-nous les identifier activement lors de l’entretien ? Pouvons-nous l’exclure activement ou remplacer le soupçon ? Où trouvez-vous plus, vous savez, d’inférences vers la meilleure explication ? Quelle est l’explication qui correspond le mieux aux preuves disponibles ? Cet aspect est donc devenu très important pour la Norvège, et probablement plus important que le modèle d’entretien lui-même.

Speaker 1 (20:34)
Eh bien, comme vous le savez, vous développez ce travail et comme vous le savez, il y a un grand intérêt pour la prise de décision. Je pense que le seul psychologue à avoir reçu le prix Nobel de la paix est Dan Kahneman. Et curieusement, ce n’est pas pour ses travaux sur la prise de décision, mais pour l’ensemble de l’économie. Mais vous savez, tous les travaux de Kahneman et Tversky sur le biais de confirmation, l’heuristique, et cetera, et cetera, sont de bonnes choses. Et vous vous en serez inspiré dans votre thèse. Donc, mais écoutez, je veux dire,

Ce qui m’intéressait au début, parce que ça avait l’air sexy, c’était ce qui se passait dans l’esprit du criminel. C’est de cela qu’il s’agissait au début des années 90. Mais vous vous êtes vite rendu compte, ou je me suis rendu compte, que je pense que vous pouvez apporter une plus grande contribution si vous comprenez ce qui se passe dans l’esprit du policier. La façon dont ils pensent, la façon dont ils recueillent les informations, voilà ce qui est le plus important à bien des égards. Et ces deux éléments combinés peuvent être soit très mal faits, soit très bien faits.

Si un policier à l’esprit ouvert se rend à un entretien et interroge correctement, il obtiendra un résultat. Si vous avez un policier à l’esprit fermé qui utilise des préjugés de confirmation et des techniques coercitives, il obtiendra ce qu’il a toujours pensé qu’il obtiendrait au départ. Mais vous savez, ce n’est pas une situation facile à vivre, n’est-ce pas ?

Speaker 2 (21:37)
Définitivement,

Vous vous êtes donc rendu seul à Göteborg et avez passé deux jours avec moi, Per Anders et Carl pour déterminer comment procéder. Pouvons-nous réellement comparer les prises de décision ? Je voulais en effet comparer les détectives anglais et norvégiens. Il est en fait impossible de comparer une bonne prise de décision d’un secteur à l’autre, d’un pays à l’autre, d’une juridiction à l’autre.

Speaker 1 (22:28)
Et étaient-ils très différents ?

Speaker 2 (22:30)
Ils l’étaient,

Je me souviens de la première information selon laquelle vous devriez faire cela dans la, la, dans la, dans la suite hydroélectrique. Et je me suis dit que ce serait un avantage pour les Britanniques, parce qu’ils en ont l’habitude. Nous avons donc décidé de le faire à l’extérieur. Mais ce que nous avons découvert, c’est que Carl dans ces études que nous voulions qu’ils voient, pouvez-vous identifier les inclinaisons possibles ?

une bonne réflexion. Vous avez donc dit : « C’est bien, Ivar, mais ne faites pas cela sans un étalon-or ». Ce n’est pas le nombre d’hypothèses qui compte, c’est leur qualité. C’est un autre bon conseil que j’ai reçu. Je n’aime pas, vous n’aimez pas la formulation ici, mais c’était un conseil très important. Ensuite, nous appliquons le processus Delfi pour identifier les…

qu’un cas de personne peu enviable et nous sommes rapidement tombés d’accord sur le fait qu’il n’y en a que six. Il n’y a que six explications possibles à la disparition d’une personne. Et toutes ont des besoins d’enquête sous-jacents. Elles répondent donc à des besoins d’information. Nous leur avons donc également demandé de nous indiquer les mesures d’enquête à prendre. Et lorsque nous avons fait cela, les Britanniques ont obtenu une moyenne de 80 %

l’étalon-or, tandis que les Norvégiens en avaient 41.

Speaker 1 (23:49)
Qu’est-ce que vous pensez que c’était ?

Speaker 2 (23:50)
Pas de formation, pas de retour d’information, pas de formation. Comme vous et moi. Ou très peu de formation. C’est pourquoi plus de formation en Angleterre, plus ils étaient en forme. Je pense, vous savez, qu’il faut rationaliser la raison pour laquelle vous faites cela. Il y a quelqu’un qui regarde par-dessus leur épaule dans le système d’accréditation. Vous savez que lorsque mon plan…

Speaker 1 (23:51)
Pas de train.

Speaker 2 (24:09)
a 24 heures, quelqu’un frappera à cette porte et viendra vérifier. Et si ce n’est pas bon, ils feront un rapport. Et si ce n’est pas bon après tant et tant d’heures, il n’y aura pas de jour où ils reviendront. Je pense que c’est surtout en Angleterre qu’il s’agit d’empêcher les autorités de dépenser de l’argent pour de mauvaises enquêtes, mais cela signifie aussi qu’elles, vous savez, nous…

Speaker 1 (24:30)
Do they

Les officiers norvégiens sont peut-être moins exposés aux affaires ?

Speaker 2 (24:35)
Je serai évident. Donc, donc, donc, donc vous obtenez une plus grande exposition, mais il y a aussi le fait que si vous, et c’est tout à fait évident quand nous pouvons, je n’en ai pas fait l’hypothèse. pensait que la différence ne serait pas si grande, puis nous avons réalisé qu’il n’y en a pas.

La certification n’est pas accessible, la recertification ou quoi que ce soit d’autre. Il y a donc, bien sûr, des Norvégiens qui se sont très bien débrouillés, mais aussi d’autres qui se sont très mal débrouillés. Nous nous sommes alors dit qu’il fallait un système. Il faut en fait une accréditation pour être un bon détective et il faut en quelque sorte se recycler et prouver à nouveau que l’on est toujours à la hauteur.

C’est ce qui est ressorti de cette recherche. Il est intéressant de noter que la direction de la police norvégienne s’en est inspirée. Nous nous dirigeons donc lentement vers un système dans lequel vous devez suivre une formation avant d’obtenir un emploi et vous devez également obtenir ce type de…

Speaker 1 (25:32)
Are

Mais vous avez de plus en plus de jeunes détectives ? Je pense qu’au Royaume-Uni, c’est la même chose : ils prennent en charge des affaires en raison des ressources, des finances et de tout ce qui s’ensuit. Les jeunes prennent en charge des affaires très médiatisées, sans nécessairement avoir assez d’expérience pour s’asseoir. Nous avons mené une étude sur les enquêtes de viols, qui s’est révélée très intéressante. L’une des manipulations que nous avons effectuées, c’était un type d’étude similaire. Nous avons donné à un…

Dans le cas d’un scénario concernant une enquête sur un viol, nous avons élaboré un étalon-or de la même manière en examinant la qualité des décisions. Nous avons dit à la moitié du groupe : « Je suis vraiment désolé, mais vous êtes pressés par le temps aujourd’hui, vous allez donc devoir faire vite ». Même si nous leur avons accordé exactement le même temps qu’à l’autre groupe auquel nous n’avons pas dit cela. Ce qui est intéressant, c’est que certains enquêteurs enquêtaient sur des viols depuis plus de sept ans. Vous pouviez donc avoir un officier qui était détective depuis 10 ans.

et a fait sept ans de viol. Un autre policier qui a été inspecteur pendant 20 ans et qui a consacré six ans au viol obtiendrait de moins bons résultats. C’est un peu comme un saut aléatoire, mais c’est un peu comme les études sur les personnes capables d’évaluer la qualité de la nourriture. Il existe en fait des études sur des personnes capables de regarder des porcs et de dire que ce sera un porc convenable à manger. Mais cela ne s’applique pas aux vaches.

Cela peut sembler bizarre, mais je veux dire qu’il s’agit de connaissances spécifiques à un domaine. Exactement. Vous auriez donc pu vous occuper de personnes disparues. Exactement. Pendant 20 ans et six ans sur le viol, vous n’obtiendrez pas d’aussi bons résultats qu’une personne qui a passé huit ans sur le viol. Seulement, l’une des choses dont nous ne savons pas grand-chose, c’est quelle est la variation dans ces différents types d’enquêtes. Mais sept ans semblent être un facteur prédictif.

Un autre prédicteur était le besoin de fermeture, qui est une différence individuelle liée à la tolérance à l’ambiguïté. Nous avons constaté que les personnes très décidées, mais également tolérantes à l’ambiguïté, avaient tendance à obtenir de bons résultats dans cette tâche. Par ailleurs, nous avons mesuré l’intelligence fluide, c’est-à-dire les matrices progressives de Raven, qui sont non numériques et non verbales, et qui ont trait à la manière dont les gens reconnaissent les schémas.

Il s’agit donc d’un schéma, de la reconnaissance de schémas complexes dans l’information, de l’ouverture d’esprit, mais de l’esprit de décision, de beaucoup d’expérience. Par ailleurs, j’ai mentionné cette manipulation autour de la pression temporelle. Nous avons constaté que les personnes particulièrement douées pour prendre des décisions, lorsqu’elles étaient pressées par le temps, faisaient tout ce qu’elles avaient à faire et étaient capables d’éliminer les éléments redondants assez rapidement. Alors que les personnes qui avaient moins de sept ans,

n’étaient pas très décisifs, ne toléraient pas l’ambiguïté et avaient une faible intelligence fluide, paniquaient simplement lorsqu’on leur disait qu’ils avaient moins de temps et ne faisaient pas toutes les choses essentielles. C’était donc très intéressant. En termes d’expérience, vous devez avoir un certain degré d’expérience. L’intelligence est un facteur prédictif et, bien sûr, la formation et l’exposition. c’est, enfin, l’autre, désolé, je m’égare. L’autre chose qui m’intéresse de plus en plus, c’est

Comment faire progresser les gens dans la maîtrise d’une compétence technique complexe sans leur faire subir sept années de trempage ? Exactement. Vous avez mentionné Hydra. J’ai participé aux premiers jours d’Hydra, un grand projet d’apprentissage immersif basé sur des scénarios. Et c’était très bien. Mais je suis très intéressé par le concept de micro-apprentissage, l’apprentissage court, mais répétitif. C’est pourquoi..,

Il y a quelque chose, il y a une littérature émergente et le micro-apprentissage qui pourrait être pertinent pour les entretiens, pourrait être pertinent pour la prise de décision. Comment amener les gens à acquérir une compétence technique complexe qui prend normalement beaucoup de temps ?

Speaker 2 (29:04)
Un peu de tennis chaque semaine au lieu d’une fois par an.

Speaker 1 (29:06)
Oui, exactement. Vous savez, si vous apprenez le tennis, est-ce que je passe huit heures avec vous, puis je vous interdis de recommencer pendant un an ? Ou est-ce que je m’assure que vous vous entraînez 10 minutes par jour tous les jours pendant trois semaines ?

Speaker 2 (29:16)
Pensez-vous, comme je l’ai dit, que la recherche sur les détectives britanniques et norvégiens spécialisés dans les homicides a montré, du moins suggéré, que la certification, que vous devez réellement faire quelque chose pour obtenir et conserver le certificat. Est-ce quelque chose que nous pourrions considérer comme l’entretien, mais aussi comme le monde de l’entretien ?

Speaker 1 (29:32)
dépend de la façon dont elle est certifiée.

Speaker 2 (29:36)
Exactement. Vous savez, vous pourriez probablement y penser. Vous savez, nous avons des systèmes d’accréditation pour toutes sortes de choses. L’entretien est un processus. L’entretien est un processus et certaines étapes ne doivent pas être ignorées.

Speaker 1 (29:51)
Oui, je veux dire, c’est comme tout, n’est-ce pas ? Vous voulez vous assurer que la mesure est une mesure juste de ce que vous savez qui améliore la performance. C’est comme, je veux dire, non pas que nous devions redevenir politiques, mais je veux dire, certains gouvernements, que je ne nommerai pas, ont conçu des mécanismes excessifs pour mesurer la performance. Et cela peut aussi être un problème.

Ma réponse est donc que cela dépend de la métrique. Cela dépend de la mesure. Cela dépend de son caractère onéreux et de son intention. L’idée de mesurer est manifestement importante. L’idée de surveillance, de performance et de contrôle est importante. Mais encore une fois, pour en revenir à la prise de décision, j’ai certainement, eh bien, je veux dire, même en revenant aux choses dont nous parlions, l’intensité excessive des entretiens, vous voulez vous assurer que c’est proportionné, que c’est juste, que c’est réglementé et que ce n’est pas exagéré.

Comme vous le savez, mes autres domaines d’intérêt sont la prise de décision en situation critique et l’inertie décisionnelle. Ainsi, dans les cas très médiatisés où toutes les options semblent mauvaises, la pire chose à faire est de ne rien faire, mais cela arrive fréquemment. Nous avons tous en tête d’innombrables exemples de prises de décision problématiques où les gens ont été trop lents à agir ou n’ont pas agi du tout. Et la recherche nous l’a appris.

Speaker 2 (30:48)
Merci

Speaker 1 (31:03)
qu’une partie de cela est liée à la perception de la responsabilité d’une mauvaise décision. Et donc, vous savez, j’ai une option cataclysmique et une mauvaise option, mais je ne veux pas être responsable de l’une ou de l’autre, alors je ne fais rien. En fait, la mauvaise option est meilleure que l’option cataclysmique. Alors, désolé, je divague un peu, mais oui, je pense que la certification est une bonne idée, le degré d’examen, tant qu’il s’agit d’une mesure juste et non d’une mesure excessive.

Speaker 2 (31:26)
Je pense que Davidhorn nous a accordé cet entretien et que la technologie peut également jouer un rôle. Si vous voulez tester et certifier des personnes, vous devez être fiable, testable et cohérent. La technologie peut jouer un rôle à cet égard, si nous pouvons documenter cette compétence et la tester de manière cohérente.

et il s’agit probablement d’un futur pour voir s’il peut être aussi efficace, vous savez.

Speaker 1 (31:53)
Je veux dire que tout ce qui peut aider à observer les détails de ce qui se passe dans la salle d’interview et vous savez que nous avons tous regardé une présentation tout à l’heure sur la transcription et la traduction et la technologie pour aider à observer tout cela doit évidemment être utile.

Speaker 2 (32:07)
Évidemment, et je suppose que vous n’auriez pas pu faire vos recherches sur Orbit sans les enregistrements, n’est-ce pas ?

Speaker 1 (32:12)
Extrêmement difficile. Extrêmement difficile. Presque tout notre matériel était audiovisuel. Certains n’étaient que des enregistrements. Je ne pense pas qu’il n’y ait eu que des transcriptions. Je pense que tout était au moins audio. Oui, c’est vrai.

Speaker 2 (32:23)
Je pense vraiment, nous en parlons aussi au sommet, que l’IA peut nous aider. Je pense qu’une partie de l’inertie décisionnelle que vous constatez dans vos recherches sur la prise de décision critique est également…

entrave massivement les entretiens. Les intervieweurs ne savent pas quoi demander. Ils ne suivent pas. Ils ne sont pas en mesure de comprendre ce que cela signifie. Dans mon cas, en ce moment. Vous pouvez leur enseigner autant de techniques d’entretien que vous le souhaitez. Mais s’ils ne savent pas ce qu’ils veulent savoir, comment sauront-ils quoi demander ? Ils commencent alors à tourner en rond et à ennuyer le suspect,

Speaker 1 (32:38)
est aussi était.

Speaker 2 (33:02)
Fuck up the intro.

Intervenant 1 (33:03)
Eh bien, tout ce qui peut contribuer à réduire la charge cognitive sera extrêmement utile. Børge et moi en avons parlé. Toute technologie qui peut aider à organiser l’information ou à vous donner un petit coup de pouce ou à la visualiser d’une manière importante ou simplement vous donner accès à quelque chose qui sera plus rapide, tout cela sera certainement utile. Je veux dire par là que nous travaillons un peu, sans vouloir m’écarter d’un autre domaine, mais nous travaillons avec la DARPA.

sur l’utilisation de l’IA dans le triage médical et les incidents impliquant un grand nombre de victimes. Vous savez, lorsqu’un hôpital est débordé à la suite d’une fusillade, à quel moment doit-on transférer l’autonomie à un système ? Vous savez, en examinant tout cela, je pense que c’est important, mais quiconque a été impliqué dans l’IA, que ce soit en tant qu’éthicien, juriste ou psychologue, sait que l’une des choses importantes est qu’il faut garder l’humain dans la boucle quelque part, parce que ce que l’on ne peut pas faire, c’est de ne pas le faire.

Ce qui met les gens mal à l’aise, c’est qu’ils ne savent pas ce que fait l’IA au moment où elle le fait. Ainsi, lorsque nous avons parlé aux chirurgiens de l’IA dans le contexte des accidents de masse, ils nous ont répondu qu’ils étaient tout à fait favorables à l’IA si elle pouvait nous soulager et si un chirurgien pouvait nous aider. Mais nous voulons savoir pourquoi elle procède à un tel triage, ce qui est parfaitement raisonnable. Exactement. Les entretiens avec l’IA sont donc très intéressants. J’ai joué avec différents chatbots pour voir si je pouvais leur mentir avec succès.

Je ne citerai pas de noms en particulier. Il y en a un qui m’a vraiment impressionné. Je peux le dire, n’est-ce pas ? L’inflexion. Quelqu’un a-t-il essayé l’inflexion ? L’avez-vous essayée ? C’est très impressionnant. En fait, je me suis sentie mal à l’aise d’y renoncer. Mais ce qui est intéressant, c’est que beaucoup de ceux que j’ai essayés ont essayé de prétendre qu’ils étaient humains, alors que je savais qu’ils ne l’étaient pas. Et j’ai dit,

Désolé, j’ai changé d’avis, vous pouvez couper cette partie. Mais je discutais avec l’un d’entre eux et il m’a dit : « Oh, bonjour Laurence, qu’est-ce qui vous intéresse ? J’ai répondu que j’aimais bien les œuvres d’art. Ils m’ont répondu : « Oh, vraiment ? Et j’ai dit, oui. Et j’ai dit, vous aimez les œuvres d’art ? Et ils ont dit, oui, j’aime bien Picasso. Je me suis dit que c’était des conneries. Vous n’avez jamais vu de Picasso. Je leur ai demandé où ils avaient vu un Picasso. Oh, je n’en ai pas vu. Il essayait de faire ce que les intervieweurs font mal, c’est-à-dire être congruent avec moi et comme moi. Mais celui de l’inflexion ne m’a pas menti. Il a reconnu qu’il s’agissait d’un robot.

et c’était direct, ça disait que je n’avais jamais vu d’art de ma vie, que je ne pouvais pas vous dire de quoi il s’agissait. Je me suis dit que je pouvais vivre avec ça. Vous voyez ce que je veux dire ? Du point de vue de l’entretien, j’ai trouvé que c’était racontable, parce qu’il n’essayait pas de…

Speaker 2 (35:19)
en quelque sorte des conneries, oui ?

Speaker 1 (35:20)
Et c’était une très bonne métaphore. J’ai dit, bon, nous parlons depuis environ une heure maintenant. J’ai dit, si j’étais un animal, qu’est-ce que je serais ? Il m’a répondu que c’était un animal et m’a donné une bonne description de la raison. J’ai trouvé cela très intelligent. Et cela semblait rationnel par rapport à ce que j’ai, je sais que nous sommes en train de dévier de notre route. Quel animal était-ce ? La pieuvre. Vous avez donc vos tentacules sur beaucoup de choses et vous glissez dans tous les sens et vous êtes assez mercurien, ce que je fais maintenant, je suppose. Mais je…

Mais c’était une métaphore inventive et imaginative à laquelle je pouvais m’identifier. Quoi qu’il en soit, nous nous éloignons de PEACE. Je veux dire, en termes d’entretien avec l’IA, je suppose que nous y arriverons à un moment ou à un autre. Parce qu’elle ne se fatiguera jamais. Je sais, deux choses qui vont arriver aux intervieweurs, je suis maintenant fatigué.

Speaker 2 (36:00)
Et est-ce que, dernière question, est-ce que vous pensez, Laurence, qu’un jour, les robots ou l’IA remplaceront l’intervieweur humain ?

Speaker 1 (36:08)
C’est tout à fait concevable. Je veux dire, même si vous pensez à l’empathie cognitive, vous savez, si vous, si j’interviewe une jeune femme de 19 ans qui est allée en Syrie et a vécu cette expérience et que j’ai, que j’ai une connaissance limitée de cette expérience, une IA pourrait potentiellement connaître toutes les routes que cette personne a pu emprunter. J’aurai donc des connaissances beaucoup plus riches et plus denses que moi.

Donc, en termes de connaissances, il l’aura, il ne se fatiguera pas comme je le ferais avec l’un ou l’autre. Donc je ne sais pas, potentiellement.

Speaker 2 (36:42)
Comme vous l’avez dit plus tôt, techniquement, un robot peut probablement piloter un avion de manière plus sûre qu’un pilote humain.

Speaker 1 (36:51)
Presque certainement,

Speaker 2 (36:52)
Il se peut donc que ce soit la même chose.

Speaker 1 (36:54)
Potentiellement,

Speaker 2 (36:55)
Merci beaucoup, Professeur Laurence Alison.

Transcription

Ivar Fahsing :
Bonsoir à tous. Bienvenue au sommet de l’interview Davidhorn ici à Copenhague et à ce podcast en direct. Je vous souhaite également la bienvenue, Laurence Alison. C’est pour cela qu’ils sont étranges, n’est-ce pas ? Je m’appelle Ivar Fahsing et c’est un honneur de vous accueillir ce soir. Nous sommes passés par, la discussion Laurence sur, je vais directement à la balle.

Laurence Alison : (00:17)
Nous le ferons.

Speaker 2 (00:27)
L’un de vos excellents produits, sur lequel j’ai fait des recherches pendant des années, s’appelle Orbit. Il s’agit d’une approche d’entretien basée sur le rapport. Et comme vous le savez, l’approche scientifique dominante en matière d’entretien s’appelle le modèle PEACE.

Est-ce la mort de la paix ?

Speaker 1 (00:44)
Non, absolument pas. Et si je disais quelque chose dans ce sens, je me ferais probablement tirer dessus par Andy Smith, qui est le chef de file national en ce moment. Oui, je pense qu’il y a une certaine confusion. Il ne s’agit absolument pas d’un modèle compétitif. Et je pense qu’il est très proche de PEACE. Si vous lisez la documentation originale de PEACE, il n’y a rien qui soit en contradiction avec ce que nous enseignons. Je pense que ce qui est arrivé à PEACE, c’est qu’une partie du programme n’a pas été enseignée telle qu’elle avait été écrite à l’origine.

Et parfois, lorsque nous formons les gens, certains officiers traitent cela de manière très mécanique. Vous devez faire ceci, vous devez faire cela, vous devez faire cela et ainsi de suite. Jusqu’à la traduction inappropriée de ce que l’on appelle la phase de défi, où parfois, comme nous l’avons vu dans certains entretiens au Royaume-Uni, ils vont jusqu’au bout, puis soudainement ils jettent tout sur la phase de défi. Mais cela ne figure pas dans la version originale de PEACE.

Je ne pense donc pas qu’il s’agisse d’un modèle compétitif. Je pense qu’il est largement sympathique et conforme à ce qui est enseigné dans PEACE. Et PEACE, tel que je le conçois, est en grande partie une approche de planification de toute façon, concernant les phases qu’il est important de mener et de traverser, tandis qu’Orbit est très, très spécifique. Il permet aux officiers de police de comprendre les compétences requises pour traiter avec les gens lorsqu’ils sont résistants ou difficiles.

non pas pour les tromper, les persuader, les cajoler ou les manipuler, mais pour rendre cette interaction raisonnable, proportionnée et équitable. Ainsi, si quelqu’un vous parle, vous n’avez pas besoin d’Orbit parce que cela fonctionne. C’est lorsque vous rencontrez une résistance ou une difficulté que ces compétences sont importantes.

Speaker 2 (02:15)
L’église que nous entendons ici n’est pas pour la PAIX.

Intervenant 1 (02:19)
Ce n’est pas pour PEACE là-dedans. Vous savez, PEACE existe depuis longtemps. Il semble fonctionner parfaitement bien pour la police britannique, il n’y a donc aucune raison de le changer. Mais pour moi, il n’y a rien dans ce que nous enseignons qui soit incohérent ou incompatible avec ce qui est décrit dans PEACE.

Speaker 2 (02:35)
Vous êtes si poli, Laurence. Je disais que pendant la pause, il manque quelque chose. Pourrais-je suggérer qu’il s’agit peut-être d’un turbo booster ?

Speaker 1 (02:46)
Vous êtes

en essayant de me faire dire du mal de la PAIX.

Speaker 2 (02:48)
Plus que cela, comme vous l’avez dit, d’accord, glissons-le alors et disons, qu’est-ce qu’Orbit ne livre pas ?

Speaker 1 (02:54)
Ne pas livrer. Je pense que cela n’aborde pas une partie très importante de ce qui est important dans un entretien, à savoir la prise de décision. Vous savez, les processus cognitifs sur la façon dont vous gérez un entretien, les types de questions, les choses comme l’utilisation stratégique des preuves, ces éléments, la divulgation avant l’entretien, la préparation des déclarations, tous ces éléments, dont nous savons tous qu’ils sont importants. Vous savez, une grande partie de votre travail, Ivar, et les éléments de prise de décision. Il ne s’agit pas d’un modèle de prise de décision.

Il s’agit d’un modèle très spécifique sur la manière de traiter les gens différemment, en fonction des différentes formes de résistance. Enfin, pour en revenir à PEACE, ce que PEACE n’enseigne pas aux officiers, c’est la manière de traiter les gens lorsqu’ils sont difficiles. Et c’est ce sur quoi nous nous sommes concentrés.

Speaker 2 (03:35)
Il s’agit d’une clarification très utile, car il existe différents modèles et vous vous demandez parfois s’il faut prendre A ou B. Ici, vous avez besoin de deux pilules.

Speaker 1 (03:45)
Oui, comme vous le savez, nous avons suivi des formations dans le monde entier, et les forces de police utilisent des choses différentes, et nous en avons déjà parlé. Vous savez, il y a beaucoup de confusion et si j’étais un officier de police de première ligne recevant une formation aux entretiens, je ne saurais pas ce qui se passe parce que c’est un peu un mélange de tout et n’importe quoi. Vous savez, je pense qu’il y a trop d’idées dans le pot et je conseillerais à la police d’interroger tous les modèles qu’on lui vend.

Sur quoi vous fondez-vous pour m’enseigner cela ? Sur quelles données se base-t-il ? Quel est le type de données sur lesquelles elles se fondent ? Lorsque vous faites cette affirmation, dites-moi sur quoi elle se fonde. Où sont les preuves ? Je veux dire, de la même manière que vous ne prendriez pas une pilule ou une intervention médicale avec cela, je suppose, en sachant qu’elle a fait l’objet de tests rigoureux. Oui, c’est vrai.

Vous savez, je voudrais savoir ce que je m’apprête à mettre dans mon corps et que cela a été testé. Tous les modèles existants ne reposent donc pas sur des preuves solides.

Speaker 2 (04:40)
Absolument pas.

Si vous pensez à Orbit, nous discuterons du fait que je pense que dans certaines communautés, dans certains pays, il fonctionne très bien, il est très populaire, en particulier aux Pays-Bas et au Royaume-Uni, et vous venez d’être présenté en Norvège, je suppose qu’en Irlande, il y a quelques bureaux que je connais qui l’apprécient vraiment. Y a-t-il des endroits où vous pensez que c’est plus nécessaire ?

Ensuite, d’autres

Speaker 1 (05:03)
Je pense que les États-Unis en ont besoin parce que, historiquement, ils ont utilisé d’autres méthodes qui ne sont pas fondées sur des preuves, qui sont endémiques et qui sont en quelque sorte ancrées dans l’ADN de leur mode de fonctionnement. Et je pense que ce véhicule est en train de se retourner lentement. Mais si vous utilisez la technique A depuis 60 ou 70 ans et qu’il s’agit de l’approche la plus efficace, vous ne pouvez pas vous permettre d’en faire autant.

Je pense qu’il est difficile de convaincre les gens de l’importance de ce modèle, simplement parce qu’il existe depuis longtemps. Je pense qu’il est difficile de convaincre les gens de ce message. Cela dit, nous travaillons avec le procureur de l’État de Californie, un homme charmant appelé Vern Pearson, qui est très sensible à cette question. Nous nous rendons sur place chaque année et nous organisons des formations. Ils essaient d’étendre cette activité à l’ensemble de la région. Et, vous savez, c’est, c’est en train de se transformer lentement au point que je pense qu’il y aura très peu d’activités de formation.

de ces autres techniques utilisées dans l’État de Californie, au moins. Nous travaillons également avec le Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC). Ils sont très réactifs et mon expérience aux États-Unis avec le HIG, High Valley Detainee Derogation Group, est assez positive. Ils sont sceptiques à juste titre, mais ils sont très réceptifs.

Speaker 2 (06:14)
pour vous demander, parce que vous voyagez aussi beaucoup à travers le monde. Je me disais simplement qu’il y a peut-être une question culturelle sous-jacente ici qui est au-delà ou qui n’est pas nécessairement liée à des entretiens plus poussés, est-ce que nous prenons des leçons de ce pays ou non ? Qui êtes-vous pour me donner des leçons ?

Speaker 1 (06:31)
Peut-être, oui, peut-être. En fait, nous ne rencontrons pas vraiment cela lorsque nous nous rendons dans d’autres pays. J’ai été surprise de voir à quel point les gens sont réceptifs. Il peut y avoir un peu de résistance. Je ne peux pas citer de noms, n’est-ce pas ? Je me souviens d’un groupe militaire avec lequel nous étions, il y a quelques années, et je me souviens d’être entré dans la pièce, et je me suis dit, mon Dieu, ça va être un cauchemar. Ils étaient une trentaine, tous tatoués, les bras croisés, et on pouvait voir des gens très expérimentés.

Et tout à fait raisonnablement, ils regardaient un psychologue barbu et se disaient : « Est-ce qu’il sait ? C’est assez juste, vous savez. Mais nous avons renversé la situation assez rapidement en parlant de ce dont nous étions en train de parler, en étant respectueux et en permettant à la discussion de s’exprimer et bla, bla, bla. Je n’ai trouvé cela nulle part. J’ai trouvé un scepticisme sain, mais globalement une réceptivité. Mais pour en revenir à votre remarque sur PEACE et PACE, je pense qu’au Royaume-Uni,

La faiblesse de nos agents en matière d’interrogatoire réside dans le manque de persévérance, de rigueur et de questions justes et impartiales, mais fermes. Je pense qu’il y a un peu de cela, qu’il s’agisse d’un retour de balancier de PACE où il y a une sorte de réticence à, vous savez, sonder un peu plus, peu importe ce que c’est, je ne sais pas. Mais il est certain que je constate que certains de nos officiers britanniques posent une question et qu’ils vont

Je pense que si la personne a donné une réponse incomplète, vous avez le droit de l’explorer un peu ou s’il y a une divergence dans ce qui a été dit, cela n’a pas de sens, vous avez dit ceci, mais d’un autre côté, nous avons ceci. s’il y a une divergence dans ce qui a été dit, cela n’a pas de sens, vous avez dit ceci, mais d’un autre côté, nous avons cela. Je pense donc qu’il y a un peu d’hésitation dans certaines de nos forces de l’ordre britanniques et je ne sais pas si cela est associé à PEACE.

Je ne peux pas le dire, mais il y a certainement cet élément.

Speaker 2 (08:17)
La raison pour laquelle je vous ai posé cette question culturelle, c’est que vous êtes Asbjørn Rachlew, un ami à nous deux. Nous faisions de la formation à Beyrouth, financée en partie par l’Union européenne. Deux hauts fonctionnaires sont donc venus inspecter cette salle de formation pour s’assurer que l’argent était dépensé comme prévu. Il s’agissait d’un juge allemand et d’un ancien juge français de la Cour suprême.

Au début, ils observaient de loin et étaient un peu réservés. Mais au fil des jours, ils se sont de plus en plus impliqués et se sont montrés enthousiastes. Je me suis dit que ça avait l’air vraiment bien. Et puis nous sommes allés dîner et ils étaient tellement, ils étaient tous dans le coup, oh, c’est vraiment bon. Après quelques verres de vin, j’ai dit :  » N’est-ce pas ?

N’est-ce pas fascinant ? Nous sommes ici à Beyrouth. Le juge allemand et le juge français sont fascinés par ce que nous mettons en œuvre ici à Beyrouth. Et ce n’est le cas dans aucun de vos pays. Dans le taxi qui nous ramène à l’hôtel,

Je pense que c’est un Allemand qui a dit : « Ivar, vous savez sûrement pourquoi. Vous devez savoir pourquoi il n’a été adopté ni en France ni en Allemagne. a dit, non, aidez-moi.

Speaker 1 (09:28)
britannique.

C’est une bonne chose.

Speaker 2 (09:29)
Wah agwin, c’est même un taux

Speaker 1 (09:31)
Je vais vous raconter une autre histoire. Non pas qu’il s’agisse d’une interview pertinente, mais nous avons développé un outil pour étudier la gestion des ressources dans les affaires d’images indécentes. Comme vous le savez, il y a tellement d’individus qui téléchargent, distribuent ou possèdent des images indécentes au Royaume-Uni et partout ailleurs qu’il est impossible d’enquêter sur chacun d’entre eux. Vous devez donc enquêter sur ceux qui vous semblent les plus probables.

impliqué dans un délinquant de contact également. Nous aimerions tous les prendre, mais nous ne pouvons pas. Nous devons nous concentrer sur ceux qui sont réellement des délinquants de contact. Quoi qu’il en soit, pendant de nombreuses années, nous avons développé un outil qui a vu le jour dans le Kent. Je travaillais avec un officier de police, Matthew Long, un homme charmant. Il s’est retiré de la protection de l’enfance, mais il est monté en grade au sein de la NCA. C’est un homme charmant, qui a fait son doctorat avec moi. Quoi qu’il en soit, pendant de nombreuses années, nous avons développé cet outil et il était très bon. Il était très précis. Il permettait d’identifier correctement les individus qui étaient beaucoup plus susceptibles d’être des délinquants de contact.

tout en identifiant correctement les personnes qui ne sont pas susceptibles d’être contactées par les vendeurs. Nous avons ensuite réalisé un grand projet. Lorsque nous étions dans l’Union européenne, nous avons été financés par Fighting International. Nous avons reçu des fonds suffisants pour étudier la question en Estonie, en Espagne et dans d’autres pays. Certains d’entre vous connaissent peut-être les travaux de Hofstede sur la variabilité culturelle. La question a été posée,

dans ces différents pays, peut-être que les pédophiles sont différents, vous savez, donc il peut y avoir des différences entre le Royaume-Uni et l’Estonie et ce désespoir. J’ai dit : « Non, vous gaspillez votre argent. L’outil sera le même où que nous allions. Je vous garantis que l’outil sera le même. Quoi qu’il en soit, nous avons obtenu des données de l’Estonie et de tous ces autres pays. Et sans surprise, l’outil est à peu près exactement le même. Il y a de minuscules variations. Mais chaque pays voulait qu’il soit appelé. Vous savez,

ERAT si c’était en Estonie ou SPERAT si c’était en Espagne ou FERAT si c’était en France parce qu’ils voulaient être propriétaires de leur propre outil. Je pense donc qu’il y a un peu de politique et vous savez, peu importe, mais en tant que scientifique, vous ne vous en souciez pas, c’est comme ça. C’est comme avec l’affaire Orbit. Ce n’est pas que nous avons fait des études sur la façon de parler aux enfants victimes d’abus sexuels en Corée du Sud. Le modèle est le même.

honnêteté, empathie, autonomie, évocation, intérêt pour les valeurs, les pensées et les croyances. Les formes de résistance ou de difficulté peuvent être différentes, comme l’embarras, la honte et la peur. Mais si vous vous adressez aux gens de manière appropriée, si vous êtes persistant, patient, capable d’être polyvalent, authentique, intéressé, à l’écoute, vous obtiendrez davantage d’informations.

Speaker 2 (11:53)
Absolument. Je suppose que le seuil à partir duquel on peut parler d’injustice est un peu différent. En Angleterre, vous ne pouvez pas poser une question deux fois. Au Vietnam, ils sont heureux que vous les battiez, mais vous ne les battez pas si fort.

Speaker 1 (11:59)
Que voulez-vous dire ?

Nous en avons parlé pendant la pause, l’idée de poser une question deux fois. Je suis d’accord. Je ne pense pas que vous puissiez poser deux fois la même question. Mais je pense que ce que nous faisons, et j’en parlais il y a une minute au Royaume-Uni, c’est que nous sommes réticents à poser une question à laquelle il n’a pas été répondu. Et je ne le ferais pas. Si vous me disiez quelque chose maintenant et que je ne comprenais pas ce que vous avez dit, ce n’est pas parce que vous êtes trompeur, mais je voudrais en savoir plus. Trompeur. Et vous ne penseriez pas que je suis oppressif en le demandant. Si je vous posais toujours la même question, ce serait oppressif.

Mais si je n’ai pas exploré correctement ce que vous avez dit dans un esprit de curiosité et d’intérêt, alors je pense que c’est tout à fait normal. Oui, c’est vrai. Oui, c’est vrai.

Speaker 2 (12:42)
Respect.

vous vous êtes très tôt engagé avec des praticiens dans votre recherche, ce qui est quelque chose qui vous accompagne encore en tant que chercheur, que vous avez une relation très étroite et de confiance avec les praticiens.

Speaker 1 (12:56)
Dieu, 1991 Je crois que j’ai obtenu mon diplôme de premier cycle. Est-ce exact ? Quoi qu’il en soit, c’était à l’époque de la sortie du Silence des agneaux.

et tous les jeunes branchés voulaient devenir profileurs de délinquants. J’ai travaillé avec David Cantor, un homme intéressant. Nous n’y reviendrons pas. Pendant quelques années, j’étais à l’université de Surrey et tous les jeunes branchés voulaient devenir profileurs de délinquants. J’ai commencé à me pencher sur la question et je me suis rendu compte que la plupart de ces études n’étaient que des conneries. Je sortais de trois ans d’études universitaires, d’une adhésion rigoureuse aux méthodes scientifiques et de l’arrivée sur les lieux d’un crime de gens qui se promenaient et qui disaient : « Réfléchissez »,

C’est un postier qui déteste sa mère ou je ne sais quelle autre connerie. David, béni soit-il, est arrivé alors que j’étais encore étudiante en master, et lui a donné une énorme pile de documents. C’est ce qui a développé mon intérêt pour les entretiens et la prise de décision. Il s’agissait d’une pile de documents de cette taille. Et je n’étais qu’un étudiant en master. J’étais beaucoup plus jeune que lui. Il m’a dit qu’il s’agissait d’une opération d’infiltration et qu’il y avait tout ce qu’il fallait.

Chaque lettre, chaque appel téléphonique et chaque rencontre entre un agent secret appelé Lizzie James et la cible, Colin Stagg. Et ce, dans le sillage du meurtre de Rachel Nichell, dont la plupart d’entre vous sont bien trop jeunes pour se souvenir, assassinée à Wimbledon Common sous les yeux de son fils de trois ans. Il s’agissait d’une affaire de meurtre horrible. Un psychologue, prétendument spécialiste du profilage des délinquants, avait établi un profil très ambigu et vague, qui aurait pu correspondre à n’importe qui.

Colin Stagg a été arrêté pour cette affaire, il a été interrogé de manière approfondie et une opération d’infiltration a été mise en place dans le cadre de laquelle une femme de 30 ans a été infiltrée sous le nom de code de Lizzie James qui, en gros, et c’est une version très courte de l’histoire, a développé une relation avec Colin Stagg et s’est en quelque sorte offerte à lui s’il avouait ce délit, ce qu’il n’a en fait jamais fait.

Speaker 2 (14:46)
Parce que

qu’il était assez homme pour elle.

Speaker 1 (14:48)
Oui, exactement. J’ai donc analysé toute cette opération d’infiltration et j’en ai été consterné. Elle était clairement coercitive, corrompue, avec tous les biais de confirmation auxquels on peut s’attendre. Le profil était faux. Quoi qu’il en soit, l’affaire n’a jamais été portée devant les tribunaux. Elle a été out of the voire d’erre par le juge en chef Ognor, qui l’a qualifiée de conduite la plus grossière et d’enquête policière trop zélée.

Ce qui était intéressant, c’est que du point de vue de la prise de décision, il y avait de tout. C’était du genre, voici le type que nous pensons qu’il est. Et nous chercherons toutes les preuves pour le confirmer. Et l’entretien était mauvais. Et vous pouviez clairement démontrer statistiquement que ce type était dirigé, clairement dirigé. Et mon début de carrière a été orienté, j’ai eu une

Je me suis rendu compte que je m’étais fait un nom lorsque j’ai plaidé dans diverses affaires judiciaires et que, dans l’ouest de York, on m’a dit : « Vous savez comment on vous appelle, vous ? J’ai répondu que non. Ils m’ont dit qu’on vous appelait l’homme à la hache de guerre. Et j’ai demandé ce que cela signifiait. Parce qu’on vous fait intervenir lorsqu’un tas de faux psychologues ont inventé un tas de conneries et on vous fait intervenir pour détruire, redresser ces théories douteuses. Et c’est ce que j’ai fait au début des années 90.

Ce fut une bonne expérience, car elle m’a fait prendre conscience de la rigueur dont il faut faire preuve si l’on veut contribuer à quelque chose de significatif et de pratique et aider la police. Il vaut mieux que ce soit ce que vous dites que c’est. Et malheureusement, en psychologie, les études expérimentales sont censées être bonnes. Comme nous le savons tous, la psychologie a fait l’objet d’un grand débat il y a quelque temps sur ses mérites, son applicabilité et sa reproductibilité.

Au début des années 90, une grande partie de mes recherches visait à disséquer les problèmes posés par d’autres théories. Je ne voulais pas devenir un profileur de délinquants, mais cela m’intéressait. Mais je me suis vite rendu compte que je venais d’obtenir un diplôme à l’University College de Londres, qui était très rigoureux. Et qu’il y avait toutes ces choses bidon qui se passaient. Mais c’était au début des années 90.

Speaker 2 (16:43)
Oui, exactement. J’ai eu la chance de déjeuner avec David, parce que je me demandais alors s’il était possible pour moi, en tant qu’officier de police norvégien, de faire le Master, et nous avons appris qu’il voulait…

Speaker 1 (16:54)
.

Speaker 2 (16:58)
un avertisseur de ce que l’on attendrait de nous s’ils investissaient dans le maître. Et il a dit, je me souviens qu’il a dit quelque chose comme ça. Souvenez-vous, les gars, ce que vos patrons veulent que vous rameniez, c’est une belle valise bien rangée. Et à l’intérieur, il y a un gros bouton vert « qui l’a fait ». Et il m’a dit : « Sachez que ce n’est pas ce que je vais vous donner ». J’ai dit, eh bien, où allez-vous nous donner alors ? Et il m’a répondu,

Eh bien, je pense que ce que nous pouvons vous offrir, c’est de vous aider à faire en sorte qu’au fil du temps, vous aidiez la police norvégienne à réfléchir différemment à ses problèmes. Je pense que c’était un très bon conseil.

Speaker 1 (17:36)
C’est un esprit brillant qui a créé un nouveau domaine de la psychologie, la psychologie d’investigation, qui n’existait pas auparavant. Il a apporté de nouvelles idées à ce domaine et il y a eu des progrès, comme vous le savez, dans le domaine du profilage. Il y a maintenant des études qui peuvent nous aider avec le profilage géographique, il y a la gestion des risques et David est un personnage maladroit, mais je le respecte et je l’admire.

vous savez

Speaker 2 (18:01)
Je suis personnellement très reconnaissant de ses encouragements et de la chaleur qu’il m’a apportée pendant ce temps. Je me souviens aussi d’une autre chose que vous avez dite, vous avez fait cette recherche sur le profilage des délinquants et le retour à la prise de décision. Je me souviens de ce que David a dit : « Quelle est l’alternative si le profilage des délinquants ne fonctionne pas, que devriez-vous faire à la place ? Et il a répondu : une meilleure réflexion.

Vous devez absolument vous améliorer dans ce que vous faites. Et parce qu’en général, vous supervisez des choses assez évidentes et les cas que nous examinons, il y a des informations évidentes que vous supervisez ou que vous avez perdues ou que vous n’avez pas traitées ou… Donc c’était l’autre chose, savoir, renforcer la façon dont vous pensez. Je crois que vous avez également écrit cela, vous et lui, dans un document de recherche.

pour l’administration centrale. Je ne vais pas vous citer, mais je pense que c’était vers la fin des années 90, 1998, 1999. La raison pour laquelle je m’en souviens si bien est que vous avez dit : « Je fais des recherches sur la prise de décision avec mes brillants superviseurs, Per Anders, Gunnar Öhl et Karl Ask à l’université de Göteborg, avec qui vous travailliez à l’époque. Je me suis dit que nous avions besoin d’un modèle.

pour savoir comment penser en tant que détective, tout comme le modèle PEACE ou l’orbite, que vous devez disposer d’une sorte de système pour vous aider. Qu’allez-vous faire alors ? Eh bien, c’est une question assez générique. C’est une citation tirée de l’un de vos rapports qui m’a donné cette idée. Quel pourrait être ce point de départ ? B. Et je pense que c’est un peu comme ça.

Une bonne réflexion se caractérise par une recherche approfondie d’une alternative sans privilégier celle qui est déjà présente à l’esprit.

Speaker 1 (19:44)
Cool, vraiment bien.

Speaker 2 (19:46)
Il y a un nom complet dessus.

Speaker 1 (19:47)
Je suis très impressionné par cela. Ai-je écrit ? Vous avez une bien meilleure mémoire de mon passé que moi.

Speaker 2 (19:52)
Je dois dire, Laurence, que je suis très reconnaissant pour cette phrase car il y a quelques détectives norvégiens de premier plan dans la salle. Je pense qu’ils peuvent également témoigner que cela est devenu une sorte de pièce maîtresse de la partie décisionnelle dans la version norvégienne de la formation PEACE. Il s’agit donc d’identifier activement ces explications alternatives des preuves, des histoires différentes correspondant aux mêmes preuves ?

Et pouvons-nous les identifier activement lors de l’entretien ? Pouvons-nous l’exclure activement ou remplacer le soupçon ? Où trouvez-vous plus, vous savez, d’inférences vers la meilleure explication ? Quelle est l’explication qui correspond le mieux aux preuves disponibles ? Cet aspect est donc devenu très important pour la Norvège, et probablement plus important que le modèle d’entretien lui-même.

Speaker 1 (20:34)
Eh bien, comme vous le savez, vous développez ce travail et comme vous le savez, il y a un grand intérêt pour la prise de décision. Je pense que le seul psychologue à avoir reçu le prix Nobel de la paix est Dan Kahneman. Et curieusement, ce n’est pas pour ses travaux sur la prise de décision, mais pour l’ensemble de l’économie. Mais vous savez, tous les travaux de Kahneman et Tversky sur le biais de confirmation, l’heuristique, et cetera, et cetera, sont de bonnes choses. Et vous vous en serez inspiré dans votre thèse. Donc, mais écoutez, je veux dire,

Ce qui m’intéressait au début, parce que ça avait l’air sexy, c’était ce qui se passait dans l’esprit du criminel. C’est de cela qu’il s’agissait au début des années 90. Mais vous vous êtes vite rendu compte, ou je me suis rendu compte, que je pense que vous pouvez apporter une plus grande contribution si vous comprenez ce qui se passe dans l’esprit du policier. La façon dont ils pensent, la façon dont ils recueillent les informations, voilà ce qui est le plus important à bien des égards. Et ces deux éléments combinés peuvent être soit très mal faits, soit très bien faits.

Si un policier à l’esprit ouvert se rend à un entretien et interroge correctement, il obtiendra un résultat. Si vous avez un policier à l’esprit fermé qui utilise des préjugés de confirmation et des techniques coercitives, il obtiendra ce qu’il a toujours pensé qu’il obtiendrait au départ. Mais vous savez, ce n’est pas une situation facile à vivre, n’est-ce pas ?

Speaker 2 (21:37)
Définitivement,

Vous vous êtes donc rendu seul à Göteborg et avez passé deux jours avec moi, Per Anders et Carl pour déterminer comment procéder. Pouvons-nous réellement comparer les prises de décision ? Je voulais en effet comparer les détectives anglais et norvégiens. Il est en fait impossible de comparer une bonne prise de décision d’un secteur à l’autre, d’un pays à l’autre, d’une juridiction à l’autre.

Speaker 1 (22:28)
Et étaient-ils très différents ?

Speaker 2 (22:30)
Ils l’étaient,

Je me souviens de la première information selon laquelle vous devriez faire cela dans la, la, dans la, dans la suite hydroélectrique. Et je me suis dit que ce serait un avantage pour les Britanniques, parce qu’ils en ont l’habitude. Nous avons donc décidé de le faire à l’extérieur. Mais ce que nous avons découvert, c’est que Carl dans ces études que nous voulions qu’ils voient, pouvez-vous identifier les inclinaisons possibles ?

une bonne réflexion. Vous avez donc dit : « C’est bien, Ivar, mais ne faites pas cela sans un étalon-or ». Ce n’est pas le nombre d’hypothèses qui compte, c’est leur qualité. C’est un autre bon conseil que j’ai reçu. Je n’aime pas, vous n’aimez pas la formulation ici, mais c’était un conseil très important. Ensuite, nous appliquons le processus Delfi pour identifier les…

qu’un cas de personne peu enviable et nous sommes rapidement tombés d’accord sur le fait qu’il n’y en a que six. Il n’y a que six explications possibles à la disparition d’une personne. Et toutes ont des besoins d’enquête sous-jacents. Elles répondent donc à des besoins d’information. Nous leur avons donc également demandé de nous indiquer les mesures d’enquête à prendre. Et lorsque nous avons fait cela, les Britanniques ont obtenu une moyenne de 80 %

l’étalon-or, tandis que les Norvégiens en avaient 41.

Speaker 1 (23:49)
Qu’est-ce que vous pensez que c’était ?

Speaker 2 (23:50)
Pas de formation, pas de retour d’information, pas de formation. Comme vous et moi. Ou très peu de formation. C’est pourquoi plus de formation en Angleterre, plus ils étaient en forme. Je pense, vous savez, qu’il faut rationaliser la raison pour laquelle vous faites cela. Il y a quelqu’un qui regarde par-dessus leur épaule dans le système d’accréditation. Vous savez que lorsque mon plan…

Speaker 1 (23:51)
Pas de train.

Speaker 2 (24:09)
a 24 heures, quelqu’un frappera à cette porte et viendra vérifier. Et si ce n’est pas bon, ils feront un rapport. Et si ce n’est pas bon après tant et tant d’heures, il n’y aura pas de jour où ils reviendront. Je pense que c’est surtout en Angleterre qu’il s’agit d’empêcher les autorités de dépenser de l’argent pour de mauvaises enquêtes, mais cela signifie aussi qu’elles, vous savez, nous…

Speaker 1 (24:30)
Do they

Les officiers norvégiens sont peut-être moins exposés aux affaires ?

Speaker 2 (24:35)
Je serai évident. Donc, donc, donc, donc vous obtenez une plus grande exposition, mais il y a aussi le fait que si vous, et c’est tout à fait évident quand nous pouvons, je n’en ai pas fait l’hypothèse. pensait que la différence ne serait pas si grande, puis nous avons réalisé qu’il n’y en a pas.

La certification n’est pas accessible, la recertification ou quoi que ce soit d’autre. Il y a donc, bien sûr, des Norvégiens qui se sont très bien débrouillés, mais aussi d’autres qui se sont très mal débrouillés. Nous nous sommes alors dit qu’il fallait un système. Il faut en fait une accréditation pour être un bon détective et il faut en quelque sorte se recycler et prouver à nouveau que l’on est toujours à la hauteur.

C’est ce qui est ressorti de cette recherche. Il est intéressant de noter que la direction de la police norvégienne s’en est inspirée. Nous nous dirigeons donc lentement vers un système dans lequel vous devez suivre une formation avant d’obtenir un emploi et vous devez également obtenir ce type de…

Speaker 1 (25:32)
Are

Mais vous avez de plus en plus de jeunes détectives ? Je pense qu’au Royaume-Uni, c’est la même chose : ils prennent en charge des affaires en raison des ressources, des finances et de tout ce qui s’ensuit. Les jeunes prennent en charge des affaires très médiatisées, sans nécessairement avoir assez d’expérience pour s’asseoir. Nous avons mené une étude sur les enquêtes de viols, qui s’est révélée très intéressante. L’une des manipulations que nous avons effectuées, c’était un type d’étude similaire. Nous avons donné à un…

Dans le cas d’un scénario concernant une enquête sur un viol, nous avons élaboré un étalon-or de la même manière en examinant la qualité des décisions. Nous avons dit à la moitié du groupe : « Je suis vraiment désolé, mais vous êtes pressés par le temps aujourd’hui, vous allez donc devoir faire vite ». Même si nous leur avons accordé exactement le même temps qu’à l’autre groupe auquel nous n’avons pas dit cela. Ce qui est intéressant, c’est que certains enquêteurs enquêtaient sur des viols depuis plus de sept ans. Vous pouviez donc avoir un officier qui était détective depuis 10 ans.

et a fait sept ans de viol. Un autre policier qui a été inspecteur pendant 20 ans et qui a consacré six ans au viol obtiendrait de moins bons résultats. C’est un peu comme un saut aléatoire, mais c’est un peu comme les études sur les personnes capables d’évaluer la qualité de la nourriture. Il existe en fait des études sur des personnes capables de regarder des porcs et de dire que ce sera un porc convenable à manger. Mais cela ne s’applique pas aux vaches.

Cela peut sembler bizarre, mais je veux dire qu’il s’agit de connaissances spécifiques à un domaine. Exactement. Vous auriez donc pu vous occuper de personnes disparues. Exactement. Pendant 20 ans et six ans sur le viol, vous n’obtiendrez pas d’aussi bons résultats qu’une personne qui a passé huit ans sur le viol. Seulement, l’une des choses dont nous ne savons pas grand-chose, c’est quelle est la variation dans ces différents types d’enquêtes. Mais sept ans semblent être un facteur prédictif.

Un autre prédicteur était le besoin de fermeture, qui est une différence individuelle liée à la tolérance à l’ambiguïté. Nous avons constaté que les personnes très décidées, mais également tolérantes à l’ambiguïté, avaient tendance à obtenir de bons résultats dans cette tâche. Par ailleurs, nous avons mesuré l’intelligence fluide, c’est-à-dire les matrices progressives de Raven, qui sont non numériques et non verbales, et qui ont trait à la manière dont les gens reconnaissent les schémas.

Il s’agit donc d’un schéma, de la reconnaissance de schémas complexes dans l’information, de l’ouverture d’esprit, mais de l’esprit de décision, de beaucoup d’expérience. Par ailleurs, j’ai mentionné cette manipulation autour de la pression temporelle. Nous avons constaté que les personnes particulièrement douées pour prendre des décisions, lorsqu’elles étaient pressées par le temps, faisaient tout ce qu’elles avaient à faire et étaient capables d’éliminer les éléments redondants assez rapidement. Alors que les personnes qui avaient moins de sept ans,

n’étaient pas très décisifs, ne toléraient pas l’ambiguïté et avaient une faible intelligence fluide, paniquaient simplement lorsqu’on leur disait qu’ils avaient moins de temps et ne faisaient pas toutes les choses essentielles. C’était donc très intéressant. En termes d’expérience, vous devez avoir un certain degré d’expérience. L’intelligence est un facteur prédictif et, bien sûr, la formation et l’exposition. c’est, enfin, l’autre, désolé, je m’égare. L’autre chose qui m’intéresse de plus en plus, c’est

Comment faire progresser les gens dans la maîtrise d’une compétence technique complexe sans leur faire subir sept années de trempage ? Exactement. Vous avez mentionné Hydra. J’ai participé aux premiers jours d’Hydra, un grand projet d’apprentissage immersif basé sur des scénarios. Et c’était très bien. Mais je suis très intéressé par le concept de micro-apprentissage, l’apprentissage court, mais répétitif. C’est pourquoi..,

Il y a quelque chose, il y a une littérature émergente et le micro-apprentissage qui pourrait être pertinent pour les entretiens, pourrait être pertinent pour la prise de décision. Comment amener les gens à acquérir une compétence technique complexe qui prend normalement beaucoup de temps ?

Speaker 2 (29:04)
Un peu de tennis chaque semaine au lieu d’une fois par an.

Speaker 1 (29:06)
Oui, exactement. Vous savez, si vous apprenez le tennis, est-ce que je passe huit heures avec vous, puis je vous interdis de recommencer pendant un an ? Ou est-ce que je m’assure que vous vous entraînez 10 minutes par jour tous les jours pendant trois semaines ?

Speaker 2 (29:16)
Pensez-vous, comme je l’ai dit, que la recherche sur les détectives britanniques et norvégiens spécialisés dans les homicides a montré, du moins suggéré, que la certification, que vous devez réellement faire quelque chose pour obtenir et conserver le certificat. Est-ce quelque chose que nous pourrions considérer comme l’entretien, mais aussi comme le monde de l’entretien ?

Speaker 1 (29:32)
dépend de la façon dont elle est certifiée.

Speaker 2 (29:36)
Exactement. Vous savez, vous pourriez probablement y penser. Vous savez, nous avons des systèmes d’accréditation pour toutes sortes de choses. L’entretien est un processus. L’entretien est un processus et certaines étapes ne doivent pas être ignorées.

Speaker 1 (29:51)
Oui, je veux dire, c’est comme tout, n’est-ce pas ? Vous voulez vous assurer que la mesure est une mesure juste de ce que vous savez qui améliore la performance. C’est comme, je veux dire, non pas que nous devions redevenir politiques, mais je veux dire, certains gouvernements, que je ne nommerai pas, ont conçu des mécanismes excessifs pour mesurer la performance. Et cela peut aussi être un problème.

Ma réponse est donc que cela dépend de la métrique. Cela dépend de la mesure. Cela dépend de son caractère onéreux et de son intention. L’idée de mesurer est manifestement importante. L’idée de surveillance, de performance et de contrôle est importante. Mais encore une fois, pour en revenir à la prise de décision, j’ai certainement, eh bien, je veux dire, même en revenant aux choses dont nous parlions, l’intensité excessive des entretiens, vous voulez vous assurer que c’est proportionné, que c’est juste, que c’est réglementé et que ce n’est pas exagéré.

Comme vous le savez, mes autres domaines d’intérêt sont la prise de décision en situation critique et l’inertie décisionnelle. Ainsi, dans les cas très médiatisés où toutes les options semblent mauvaises, la pire chose à faire est de ne rien faire, mais cela arrive fréquemment. Nous avons tous en tête d’innombrables exemples de prises de décision problématiques où les gens ont été trop lents à agir ou n’ont pas agi du tout. Et la recherche nous l’a appris.

Speaker 2 (30:48)
Merci

Speaker 1 (31:03)
qu’une partie de cela est liée à la perception de la responsabilité d’une mauvaise décision. Et donc, vous savez, j’ai une option cataclysmique et une mauvaise option, mais je ne veux pas être responsable de l’une ou de l’autre, alors je ne fais rien. En fait, la mauvaise option est meilleure que l’option cataclysmique. Alors, désolé, je divague un peu, mais oui, je pense que la certification est une bonne idée, le degré d’examen, tant qu’il s’agit d’une mesure juste et non d’une mesure excessive.

Speaker 2 (31:26)
Je pense que Davidhorn nous a accordé cet entretien et que la technologie peut également jouer un rôle. Si vous voulez tester et certifier des personnes, vous devez être fiable, testable et cohérent. La technologie peut jouer un rôle à cet égard, si nous pouvons documenter cette compétence et la tester de manière cohérente.

et il s’agit probablement d’un futur pour voir s’il peut être aussi efficace, vous savez.

Speaker 1 (31:53)
Je veux dire que tout ce qui peut aider à observer les détails de ce qui se passe dans la salle d’interview et vous savez que nous avons tous regardé une présentation tout à l’heure sur la transcription et la traduction et la technologie pour aider à observer tout cela doit évidemment être utile.

Speaker 2 (32:07)
Évidemment, et je suppose que vous n’auriez pas pu faire vos recherches sur Orbit sans les enregistrements, n’est-ce pas ?

Speaker 1 (32:12)
Extrêmement difficile. Extrêmement difficile. Presque tout notre matériel était audiovisuel. Certains n’étaient que des enregistrements. Je ne pense pas qu’il n’y ait eu que des transcriptions. Je pense que tout était au moins audio. Oui, c’est vrai.

Speaker 2 (32:23)
Je pense vraiment, nous en parlons aussi au sommet, que l’IA peut nous aider. Je pense qu’une partie de l’inertie décisionnelle que vous constatez dans vos recherches sur la prise de décision critique est également…

entrave massivement les entretiens. Les intervieweurs ne savent pas quoi demander. Ils ne suivent pas. Ils ne sont pas en mesure de comprendre ce que cela signifie. Dans mon cas, en ce moment. Vous pouvez leur enseigner autant de techniques d’entretien que vous le souhaitez. Mais s’ils ne savent pas ce qu’ils veulent savoir, comment sauront-ils quoi demander ? Ils commencent alors à tourner en rond et à ennuyer le suspect,

Speaker 1 (32:38)
est aussi était.

Speaker 2 (33:02)
Fuck up the intro.

Intervenant 1 (33:03)
Eh bien, tout ce qui peut contribuer à réduire la charge cognitive sera extrêmement utile. Børge et moi en avons parlé. Toute technologie qui peut aider à organiser l’information ou à vous donner un petit coup de pouce ou à la visualiser d’une manière importante ou simplement vous donner accès à quelque chose qui sera plus rapide, tout cela sera certainement utile. Je veux dire par là que nous travaillons un peu, sans vouloir m’écarter d’un autre domaine, mais nous travaillons avec la DARPA.

sur l’utilisation de l’IA dans le triage médical et les incidents impliquant un grand nombre de victimes. Vous savez, lorsqu’un hôpital est débordé à la suite d’une fusillade, à quel moment doit-on transférer l’autonomie à un système ? Vous savez, en examinant tout cela, je pense que c’est important, mais quiconque a été impliqué dans l’IA, que ce soit en tant qu’éthicien, juriste ou psychologue, sait que l’une des choses importantes est qu’il faut garder l’humain dans la boucle quelque part, parce que ce que l’on ne peut pas faire, c’est de ne pas le faire.

Ce qui met les gens mal à l’aise, c’est qu’ils ne savent pas ce que fait l’IA au moment où elle le fait. Ainsi, lorsque nous avons parlé aux chirurgiens de l’IA dans le contexte des accidents de masse, ils nous ont répondu qu’ils étaient tout à fait favorables à l’IA si elle pouvait nous soulager et si un chirurgien pouvait nous aider. Mais nous voulons savoir pourquoi elle procède à un tel triage, ce qui est parfaitement raisonnable. Exactement. Les entretiens avec l’IA sont donc très intéressants. J’ai joué avec différents chatbots pour voir si je pouvais leur mentir avec succès.

Je ne citerai pas de noms en particulier. Il y en a un qui m’a vraiment impressionné. Je peux le dire, n’est-ce pas ? L’inflexion. Quelqu’un a-t-il essayé l’inflexion ? L’avez-vous essayée ? C’est très impressionnant. En fait, je me suis sentie mal à l’aise d’y renoncer. Mais ce qui est intéressant, c’est que beaucoup de ceux que j’ai essayés ont essayé de prétendre qu’ils étaient humains, alors que je savais qu’ils ne l’étaient pas. Et j’ai dit,

Désolé, j’ai changé d’avis, vous pouvez couper cette partie. Mais je discutais avec l’un d’entre eux et il m’a dit : « Oh, bonjour Laurence, qu’est-ce qui vous intéresse ? J’ai répondu que j’aimais bien les œuvres d’art. Ils m’ont répondu : « Oh, vraiment ? Et j’ai dit, oui. Et j’ai dit, vous aimez les œuvres d’art ? Et ils ont dit, oui, j’aime bien Picasso. Je me suis dit que c’était des conneries. Vous n’avez jamais vu de Picasso. Je leur ai demandé où ils avaient vu un Picasso. Oh, je n’en ai pas vu. Il essayait de faire ce que les intervieweurs font mal, c’est-à-dire être congruent avec moi et comme moi. Mais celui de l’inflexion ne m’a pas menti. Il a reconnu qu’il s’agissait d’un robot.

et c’était direct, ça disait que je n’avais jamais vu d’art de ma vie, que je ne pouvais pas vous dire de quoi il s’agissait. Je me suis dit que je pouvais vivre avec ça. Vous voyez ce que je veux dire ? Du point de vue de l’entretien, j’ai trouvé que c’était racontable, parce qu’il n’essayait pas de…

Speaker 2 (35:19)
en quelque sorte des conneries, oui ?

Speaker 1 (35:20)
Et c’était une très bonne métaphore. J’ai dit, bon, nous parlons depuis environ une heure maintenant. J’ai dit, si j’étais un animal, qu’est-ce que je serais ? Il m’a répondu que c’était un animal et m’a donné une bonne description de la raison. J’ai trouvé cela très intelligent. Et cela semblait rationnel par rapport à ce que j’ai, je sais que nous sommes en train de dévier de notre route. Quel animal était-ce ? La pieuvre. Vous avez donc vos tentacules sur beaucoup de choses et vous glissez dans tous les sens et vous êtes assez mercurien, ce que je fais maintenant, je suppose. Mais je…

Mais c’était une métaphore inventive et imaginative à laquelle je pouvais m’identifier. Quoi qu’il en soit, nous nous éloignons de PEACE. Je veux dire, en termes d’entretien avec l’IA, je suppose que nous y arriverons à un moment ou à un autre. Parce qu’elle ne se fatiguera jamais. Je sais, deux choses qui vont arriver aux intervieweurs, je suis maintenant fatigué.

Speaker 2 (36:00)
Et est-ce que, dernière question, est-ce que vous pensez, Laurence, qu’un jour, les robots ou l’IA remplaceront l’intervieweur humain ?

Speaker 1 (36:08)
C’est tout à fait concevable. Je veux dire, même si vous pensez à l’empathie cognitive, vous savez, si vous, si j’interviewe une jeune femme de 19 ans qui est allée en Syrie et a vécu cette expérience et que j’ai, que j’ai une connaissance limitée de cette expérience, une IA pourrait potentiellement connaître toutes les routes que cette personne a pu emprunter. J’aurai donc des connaissances beaucoup plus riches et plus denses que moi.

Donc, en termes de connaissances, il l’aura, il ne se fatiguera pas comme je le ferais avec l’un ou l’autre. Donc je ne sais pas, potentiellement.

Speaker 2 (36:42)
Comme vous l’avez dit plus tôt, techniquement, un robot peut probablement piloter un avion de manière plus sûre qu’un pilote humain.

Speaker 1 (36:51)
Presque certainement,

Speaker 2 (36:52)
Il se peut donc que ce soit la même chose.

Speaker 1 (36:54)
Potentiellement,

Speaker 2 (36:55)
Merci beaucoup, Professeur Laurence Alison.

Transcription

Guest: Therese Rytter

Host: Dr Ivar Fahsing

---

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [00:00]

This morning I have the pleasure of inviting you, Therese Rytter, as our guest at this Davidhorn podcast Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. A warm welcome.

Therese Rytter  [00:10]

Thank you very much.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [00:10]

Therese, you and I know each other quite well after years where our paths have crossed, but our listeners might not be familiar with who you are and what you do in your daily work. Could you give us a short introduction?

Therese Rytter  [00:25]

Absolutely, I’d be happy to. My name is Therese Rytter. I’m a human rights lawyer by training and I am the Director of Prevention and Accountability at the Danish Institute Against Torture, Dignity, based in Copenhagen. I’ve been working in this field of international human rights for the last 30 years — essentially my entire career. In addition to this, I have also been a member of the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture for almost 12 years.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [00:56]

Fascinating. A Danish institute against torture — that’s an interesting place.

Therese Rytter  [01:03]

It is indeed. It’s a human rights development and health organisation that works in some 15 countries worldwide. We work in Denmark, of course, but also in a number of other countries, in order to try to prevent the occurrence of torture and other forms of ill-treatment and to pursue accountability — bringing perpetrators to justice and making sure that victims are also able to receive redress.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [01:34]

Interesting. As far as I know, Denmark actually holds quite an important position when it comes to torture prevention in the international community, doesn’t it?

Therese Rytter  [01:42]

That’s very right. Denmark has for several decades been the lead nation internationally in the fight against torture. Both in the United Nations General Assembly and in the UN Human Rights Council, Denmark tables resolutions that every year increase the legal protection against torture. They also support a number of programmes worldwide which seek to put these legal frameworks into practice and ensure they are carried out in everyday life — whether in policing or prison regimes.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [02:19]

Fascinating and also reassuring — that’s what you should expect from a well-established liberal democracy like Denmark. But you also mentioned that you hold a position in the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture, the CPT. Is that correct?

Therese Rytter  [02:36]

That’s absolutely right, yes.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [02:37]

Could you explain what exactly that is?

Therese Rytter  [02:40]

The European Committee for the Prevention of Torture is an expert body — part of the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe is an international human rights and democracy organisation that includes 46 member states, all the way from Norway in the north to Cyprus in the south, including the UK and extending to Turkey and Azerbaijan. Our role is essentially to help states prevent any kind of practice of torture or other forms of inhuman or degrading treatment.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [03:14]

And for how long have you been in this position?

Therese Rytter  [03:19]

Almost 12 years now. I’m ending my third mandate and cannot be re-elected. I’ve served my time in the CPT.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [03:29]

Fantastic. Thank you for the work you’ve done there. Twelve years is remarkable.

Therese Rytter  [03:38]

No, absolutely. It’s been a pleasure — an extremely important piece of work which I feel very honoured to have been part of. The CPT has a very particular and unique mandate, which no other international body holds. The CPT carries out visits to all 46 member states. We move into police stations, prisons, psychiatric hospitals — anywhere where a person can be deprived of their liberty. We sit inside cells and speak with people in police custody or in prison, to understand what their conditions are and how they are being treated. We also speak with staff and with management, so that we can make a thorough assessment, looking into files, records, and CCTV footage. It’s a very professional methodology of collecting evidence, and then of course, at the end of the visit, speaking with the national government to make recommendations on how to strengthen the protection against torture and inhuman treatment.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [04:47]

Fascinating. So your committee has a mandate approved by the governments of all Council of Europe member states?

Therese Rytter  [04:59]

Yes, that’s right. Every single country has acceded to the relevant European convention and has allowed the CPT to carry out visits into any place of detention within the jurisdiction of the state, and to cooperate with the CPT in good faith. This is a commitment they’ve all made voluntarily.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [05:22]

I see. And how does it work in practice? If you’re going to conduct an inspection of a country, what would typically be the process?

Therese Rytter  [05:34]

We assemble a delegation of independent experts — people with backgrounds as lawyers, medical doctors, perhaps with a specialisation in prison medicine, a psychiatrist, or a former police commissioner. We make sure, depending on what we want to do in the country, that we have the right expertise on board to assess the situation at a professional level. The delegation — say, ten persons — will notify the state, usually three or four weeks in advance, saying we will be visiting and we would like credentials to enter any place. Once we arrive, we receive those credentials from the government. We meet with them, seek to understand recent developments, and they explain what progress has been made and what challenges remain. From there, we conduct fact-finding. For two weeks, we work across the country — moving into police stations and prisons, most of which are not notified in advance. We may notify one or two prisons, but the rest will be surprise visits. For police stations, we can arrive around the clock — very often on a Friday or Saturday night, after there have been incidents in the town. We’ll interview persons who are arrested and detained. Our medical and forensic doctors will examine them, photograph any injuries, and review medical files and use-of-force records. There’s a whole methodology for collecting the information we need to assess how people are being treated. We do this across many police stations and prisons, not only in the capital but in remote areas as well. At the very end of the visit, we meet again with senior government representatives — the Minister of Interior, the head of police, the Minister of Justice, the head of the prison service — and present our preliminary observations, covering both good practices we’ve seen and the concerns we have about continuing patterns of violations, or in some cases, patterns of torture.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [08:20]

So you can actually speak directly with suspects in custody cells or inmates in prisons?

Therese Rytter  [08:32]

Absolutely. We have an unimpeded right to enter these areas, to choose exactly who we want to interview, and to speak with them in private. It will not be those persons the police commissioner directs us to — we choose for ourselves. We always insist that no police officer or prison guard is present, because these conversations must be confidential. Otherwise, the person we are speaking with will not feel able to speak freely.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [09:02]

May I ask — I have a police officer background from Norway and haven’t been able to access prisons or custody cells except in my own country. Could you give us a sense of what you see across Europe?

Therese Rytter  [09:20]

Yes, absolutely. We see the whole spectrum. Some countries have modern custody cells — some even have custody suites, entire modernised areas with good physical conditions: daylight, a bed, necessary facilities. These would also include access to an outdoor yard if the person is held for more than 24 hours, meals served, contact with family. That’s at the very good end of the scale. At the other end, we also see very small, dark cells — sometimes pitch dark — without any daylight, where people are locked up with no food or very little food, limited contact with family, and may be confined for many days with limited access to a toilet. Even within Europe, the range runs from A to Z.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [10:27]

I see. So at one end you have the pressure of being locked up in isolation, and at the other end, direct physical ill-treatment and violence.

Therese Rytter  [10:47]

Absolutely. There’s a whole scale. Torture is at the very high end — the most extreme form of ill-treatment. It is very specifically defined: the infliction of severe pain and suffering, done intentionally, by a law enforcement officer, for a specific purpose — to punish, to extract a confession, to intimidate. In Europe, the torture methods we encounter can include severe beatings, electrical shocks, suspension, or waterboarding. But in police custody, what we more commonly encounter falls under what we label inhuman treatment or degrading treatment. If you are locked in a police cell for three days with very little water and no natural light, that will not constitute torture in itself — but it will still be a violation of the prohibition of inhuman and degrading treatment.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [12:05]

Exactly. And in combination, the cumulative effect may be the same — particularly if the purpose is to make someone confess to a crime they did or did not commit.

Therese Rytter  [12:22]

Yes, it’s always a combination of factors. Ultimately, in Europe, it will be the European Court of Human Rights that decides whether particular treatment constitutes inhuman treatment or torture. The CPT is not a judicial body — we won’t label specific kinds of ill-treatment in those terms. Our role is to prevent these practices from occurring in the first place.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [12:47]

This takes me back to my own time as a detective at Oslo police headquarters, where I have to admit we were quite unaware of what we were dealing with when we held people in custody for weeks and months. I was interviewing suspects myself, and if they didn’t cooperate, we made clear their custody would be prolonged. I don’t think I personally ever told someone to confess or say what I wanted — but it was quite clear, even without saying it explicitly, what they would probably need to say to lift the isolation. Later it occurred to me: in the police, if you want to handle tear gas, you have to experience it yourself. I remember thinking — if you’re a detective dealing with people in custody and isolation, you should probably spend a weekend in total isolation yourself, to understand what that really does to a person.

Therese Rytter  [14:24]

Absolutely. Anyone who plays any role in placing people in solitary confinement — whether a court, a prosecutor, or whoever orders such restrictive measures — ought to understand what it actually means to be placed in solitary confinement. That’s crucial.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [14:47]

I remember my good friend Asbjørn Rachlew — who, as you know, is now the Norwegian representative on your committee — discussing this around 20 years ago with the Norwegian Director of Public Prosecutions, when we were trying to reform suspect interrogation practices. We found your committee’s reports extremely interesting once we discovered they existed. At that time, there were two things the CPT had specifically addressed regarding Norway: a culture of very long periods of custody and isolation, and a lack of recording of interviews.

Therese Rytter  [15:36]

Are you serious? Well — that’s certainly not the case anymore.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [15:42]

Exactly — but this was the late 1990s. I was a relatively young man and a naive believer in Norway as a liberal democracy. I asked people from the Director of Public Prosecutions’ office what they thought about these concerns, why we weren’t addressing them. But there was a sense of dismissiveness — a feeling that the committee simply had to write something about Norway as well, that it wasn’t really that serious.

Therese Rytter  [16:22]

No — I can imagine. Unfortunately, we still see this today. Norway has now introduced recording of interviews, but a large number of countries across Europe are still not recording interviews — with suspects, victims, or witnesses. In that sense, many countries are still where Norway was 20 years ago.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [17:00]

And speaking of that — I believe Denmark still doesn’t have an obligation to record suspect interviews?

Therese Rytter  [17:07]

No, we don’t.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [17:10]

Which is quite striking, given the position Denmark holds that we mentioned earlier. I won’t press you for your personal view on it, but it’s worth reflecting on the fact that even countries with these kinds of international positions need to examine their own practices. Even highly developed democracies can have practices that fall short.

Therese Rytter  [17:45]

This is very true. What we also observe is that some countries progress over time — they develop more refined methods and increasingly comply with human rights standards. But we also see countries that regress. They may have had better practices in the past and then, for various reasons, abandon them. It’s a dynamic situation, and that’s precisely why the CPT cannot simply say: we’ve now visited Norway, Norway is doing well in a number of areas, so they no longer need independent monitoring. Any country can fall back.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [18:31]

Absolutely. I also wanted to ask — because I know from conversations with Asbjørn Rachlew and with yourself — that your work goes beyond the physical and mental treatment of people in custody, prisons, and mental institutions. You also increasingly focus on interview methods.

Therese Rytter  [18:59]

We do. First, of course, the CPT’s original focus in terms of safeguards has been what we call the trinity of rights: anyone who is arrested and detained by the police should have the right to notify their family or another third party; they should have the right to a lawyer; and they should have the right to a doctor, who can verify whether the person may have injuries that perhaps originate from the arrest. Being informed of these rights is fundamentally important — this has been a CPT standard from the very outset. What we’ve also said for more than 25 years is that interviewing methodology is crucial. We have long maintained that the sole purpose of interviewing should be to obtain accurate and reliable information about the matter under investigation — not to obtain a confession from someone who, in the eyes of the officers, may be guilty. The presumption of innocence is central. This is a key principle the CPT has applied since its earliest days.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [20:22]

When you say that, it takes me back to a very important standard you recommended all the way back in 2002 — the year after we started national interview training in Norway. I can’t tell you how important that standard was to us, Therese. Asbjørn Rachlew and I were quite young officers at the time, trying to reform a relatively conservative organisation — the Norwegian Police and Prosecution Service. Finding that kind of standard from a European body like the CPT was so important to us. It validated the idea — it wasn’t just something we’d picked up from studying in the UK. There were other people, and important institutions, who shared the same conviction.

Therese Rytter  [21:15]

Exactly. And of course, the CPT was also heavily inspired by the member states it visited. The United Kingdom was one of the main countries at the time that had introduced the PEACE model, and examining that good practice in the UK was something we also took on board. The principle we’ve emphasised is that one should proceed from the evidence to the suspect, not from the suspect to the evidence. This has been a principle underpinning all our work in police custody.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [21:49]

It’s really fascinating, and I hope the same inspiration you provided to us many years ago is still reaching places where it’s needed. I know that even people within some of these organisations struggle with how they’re perceived when they raise concerns — whether they’re seen as loyal or as critics of their own country.

Therese Rytter  [22:21]

I can imagine. We see this as well. The police also protects itself. That’s something we observe — it’s quite rare, when we discover practices of coercive interrogation or other forms of physical ill-treatment in police custody, to also find effective investigations ending in prosecutions and law enforcement officers actually being brought to justice. In a number of countries in Europe, there is still a long way to go.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [22:51]

I can say that even in this season of Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, there are officers in some European countries who are very reluctant to accept my invitation — though they are honoured to be asked. They are genuinely afraid to speak openly about what their country needs to do to change.

Therese Rytter  [23:12]

Yes, I can very much recognise that.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [23:16]

So again, I think they should look into the CPT reports and find support there, as we did. I’d like to ask you, Therese — do I understand correctly that when you now conduct an inspection in a country, you also look at whether officers are trained and whether there is a policy on how interviews are conducted?

Therese Rytter  [23:43]

Yes, absolutely. We look, of course, at what happens within the place of detention. But if you really want to prevent ill-treatment, you need to look outside it as well. We examine a number of systemic factors. We look at how the police is trained — whether the police academy curriculum includes training on how to interview suspects, victims, or witnesses, and whether that interviewing methodology is consistent with investigative interviewing and modern good practice. We also look at the judiciary — for instance, whether a confession obtained through torture would make it all the way to court, or whether a judge would dismiss such evidence. We review interrogation rules and instructions to see whether they comply with international standards. It’s the whole range of issues — both inside and outside the place of detention — because only through this kind of holistic examination can we propose measures that are genuinely relevant to strengthening protection against ill-treatment.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [24:59]

As you know, I’ve spent much of my professional life trying to introduce investigative interviewing in the Norwegian police and prosecution service, and also in my position at the Norwegian Centre for Human Rights. I work globally with these ideas. But at some point as a police officer you think — perhaps interviewing is the thing, that if we just get the interview right, everything will follow. Sometimes, though, I think we also have to account for the broader context you’re describing. It’s never just one factor.

Therese Rytter  [25:51]

It’s the whole picture, absolutely. And it’s very much about culture — the culture within the police. Is it seen as professional to conduct interviews in an investigative manner, or is coercive interviewing considered acceptable? That’s really where it starts. How does a superior within the police react when someone has forced a confession? But it also extends to the prosecution service — are they willing to accept confessions extracted under torture? Are judges willing to close their eyes? It starts with the police, but it does not stop there. It’s essential to have all justice institutions on board. And ultimately, the political level, because it’s the Minister of Justice or the Minister of the Interior who decides what kind of practice a particular country aspires to.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [26:49]

Exactly. That brings me to a more delicate question, because you mentioned the presumption of innocence, which is a fundamental right for any suspect. I still see, even among researchers across Europe, an engagement with the question of how to make a suspect talk — methods designed to make people cooperate even when they’ve expressed they don’t wish to. I sometimes feel uncomfortable when I reflect on this: is it really the job of a police officer to make someone talk if they’ve already said they don’t want to give a statement?

Therese Rytter  [27:27]

Mm.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [27:33]

…to give a statement in this case.

Therese Rytter  [27:37]

No. The police must respect the presumption of innocence and the right to remain silent. If a criminal suspect does not wish to say anything, there’s not a great deal the police can do — they would have to collect other forms of evidence through other sources, whether documentary or otherwise. Absolutely, one cannot force a suspect to speak, and even less so force a suspect to confess.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [28:03]

Exactly. But very often the physical dimension of coercion is more readily understood and condemned. When it comes to what you might call ‘sweet talk’ — there’s a well-known piece by Professor Peter van Koppen from the Netherlands on what he terms sweet interrogations, where methods of befriending and subtle manipulation are used. That is…

Therese Rytter  [28:22]

Mm.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [28:29]

…not illegal in itself, but it’s done within a context where the person is in isolation, and they are being manipulated into doing things that are not necessarily in their interest.

Therese Rytter  [28:38]

Mm.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [28:44]

So I think it’s really important that people understand what the job actually is. A police officer, in my view, is there to uphold the law and ensure that the suspect knows their rights and can act on them — not to talk them out of exercising those rights.

Therese Rytter  [28:59]

Of course. What you call sweet talk is perhaps at the lower end. That should not happen — manipulation should not happen. But what we are looking at in the CPT is not necessarily that level. We focus on more serious practices: sleep deprivation, interviews lasting many hours with no breaks, insufficient food or water, or — during the interview itself — exposure to threats of torture or threats against the person’s family. These are extremely serious, and they are what we pay closest attention to when we receive allegations of that kind.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [29:46]

Absolutely. And please excuse me for reflecting on the broader cultural dimension here — there still seems to be a culture in which it is considered in the police’s interest for a suspect to talk. I really question that. Should a police officer have any interest in whether a suspect talks or not? Should a detective have any personal stake in the outcome of a case?

Therese Rytter  [30:18]

No. We still see countries where police officers are rewarded for having a high number of solved cases. They may receive better bonuses, better salaries, or even promotions. And for some, extracting a confession is seen as a shortcut to closing a case. This is something the CPT is also very attentive to.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [30:44]

And that’s why culture matters so much. If you want to make changes, you have to work with culture and with a genuine understanding of what the job actually requires. I remember during my PhD research on what I call tipping points in decision-making — factors that can push you towards tunnel vision about guilt — one interviewee in England said something that stayed with me. He observed that even the experience of being a uniformed police officer, where your job is to control crime and stop it, could itself be a tipping point. He said that if you really want to become an investigator, you’re probably a little bit tainted just by coming from a uniformed background. That was a profound insight into what that does to you — because investigation is definitely not about control. It is, and must be, an objective gathering of relevant information.

Therese Rytter  [31:53]

Yes. No, absolutely. I completely agree.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [31:55]

I’m really impressed by the work you’ve done and by what you’ve devoted most of your professional life to. I’m genuinely grateful for what you and the CPT have meant to our country. It was really important to have those reports when we were trying to reform practices in Norway. And I’m not saying everything is good in Norway now — it isn’t — but those reports were an important contribution.

Therese Rytter  [32:15]

I’m very happy to hear that, because this is exactly the main purpose of our work — to help as many states as possible with tailor-made recommendations that speak to the very concrete context we see. And the more reports are made public, the more broadly that influence can spread. There’s also an encouraging international trend: a number of states have now committed to what’s called automatic publication of reports. This means that once we issue a report and send it to the government, they carry out some fact-checking, but within a matter of weeks they make it public. That’s very good practice — it means not only the government and the relevant institutions, the police and the prisons, know what was said, but civil society and the broader public as well. We’re seeing an increasing number of states moving in that direction.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [33:18]

Absolutely. And speaking with you, Therese, reminds me of something important — I think both of us are involved in a European project called Implemendez, which is a funded initiative to broaden understanding of the importance of legal safeguards and scientifically grounded interview methods across Europe. And yet sometimes there seems to be an over-focus on interview methods alone.

Therese Rytter  [33:48]

I agree. Interview methods are key, but it’s not only about the moment of the interview — it’s also about what happened before. What we see in a number of countries is that upon arrest, informal conversations begin immediately. Operational police officers — not investigators — start questioning suspects: where were you, what did you do, what have you committed. These are questions that should not take place without the presence of a lawyer. We see this time and again. So it’s also about looking not just at the official interview with the investigator, but at what happened before and what pressures were placed on the person prior to any formal process. And of course all the safeguards we’ve discussed — the right of access to a lawyer, the right of access to a doctor, the right to be brought before a judge to ensure the detention is lawful — all of these build a protective framework to ensure that the right to respect for personal integrity and dignity is upheld.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [35:01]

We could go on. I couldn’t agree more. I just want to underline: none of this happens in isolation. That was the point of the story I shared from my earlier days — keeping people in custody for prolonged periods, without fully understanding what that meant. If you combine that context with even an apparently open question, you can probably still get the answer that the person knows you want. All of this has to be seen in balance, and only then can we really move forward.

Therese Rytter  [35:38]

No, I agree. I very much agree.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [35:40]

But I have to say — I really encourage our listeners to visit the CPT website through the Council of Europe, and to look into the national reports, as well as the annual recommendations and broader publications, to see how they can provide inspiration for development in all these areas.

Therese Rytter  [36:05]

Exactly. And I would also encourage everyone to explore the CPT’s resources more broadly — we have a substantial collection of standards and good practices covering different areas: police, prison systems, psychiatric hospitals, immigration detention centres. All the areas in which people can be deprived of their liberty. I would encourage anyone to read the country-specific reports, but also to look at the generic standards — because those, at the end of the day, are what every country should aspire to comply with.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [36:46]

Thank you, Therese, and thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. I’ve learnt a great deal.

Therese Rytter  [36:50]

Well, thank you. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to speak with you, as always — always very inspiring.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [36:56]

Thanks a lot.

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END OF TRANSCRIPT

© 2026 Davidhorn. All rights reserved.

Transcription

Guest: Therese Rytter

Host: Dr Ivar Fahsing

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Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [00:00]

This morning I have the pleasure of inviting you, Therese Rytter, as our guest at this Davidhorn podcast Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. A warm welcome.

Therese Rytter  [00:10]

Thank you very much.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [00:10]

Therese, you and I know each other quite well after years where our paths have crossed, but our listeners might not be familiar with who you are and what you do in your daily work. Could you give us a short introduction?

Therese Rytter  [00:25]

Absolutely, I’d be happy to. My name is Therese Rytter. I’m a human rights lawyer by training and I am the Director of Prevention and Accountability at the Danish Institute Against Torture, Dignity, based in Copenhagen. I’ve been working in this field of international human rights for the last 30 years — essentially my entire career. In addition to this, I have also been a member of the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture for almost 12 years.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [00:56]

Fascinating. A Danish institute against torture — that’s an interesting place.

Therese Rytter  [01:03]

It is indeed. It’s a human rights development and health organisation that works in some 15 countries worldwide. We work in Denmark, of course, but also in a number of other countries, in order to try to prevent the occurrence of torture and other forms of ill-treatment and to pursue accountability — bringing perpetrators to justice and making sure that victims are also able to receive redress.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [01:34]

Interesting. As far as I know, Denmark actually holds quite an important position when it comes to torture prevention in the international community, doesn’t it?

Therese Rytter  [01:42]

That’s very right. Denmark has for several decades been the lead nation internationally in the fight against torture. Both in the United Nations General Assembly and in the UN Human Rights Council, Denmark tables resolutions that every year increase the legal protection against torture. They also support a number of programmes worldwide which seek to put these legal frameworks into practice and ensure they are carried out in everyday life — whether in policing or prison regimes.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [02:19]

Fascinating and also reassuring — that’s what you should expect from a well-established liberal democracy like Denmark. But you also mentioned that you hold a position in the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture, the CPT. Is that correct?

Therese Rytter  [02:36]

That’s absolutely right, yes.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [02:37]

Could you explain what exactly that is?

Therese Rytter  [02:40]

The European Committee for the Prevention of Torture is an expert body — part of the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe is an international human rights and democracy organisation that includes 46 member states, all the way from Norway in the north to Cyprus in the south, including the UK and extending to Turkey and Azerbaijan. Our role is essentially to help states prevent any kind of practice of torture or other forms of inhuman or degrading treatment.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [03:14]

And for how long have you been in this position?

Therese Rytter  [03:19]

Almost 12 years now. I’m ending my third mandate and cannot be re-elected. I’ve served my time in the CPT.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [03:29]

Fantastic. Thank you for the work you’ve done there. Twelve years is remarkable.

Therese Rytter  [03:38]

No, absolutely. It’s been a pleasure — an extremely important piece of work which I feel very honoured to have been part of. The CPT has a very particular and unique mandate, which no other international body holds. The CPT carries out visits to all 46 member states. We move into police stations, prisons, psychiatric hospitals — anywhere where a person can be deprived of their liberty. We sit inside cells and speak with people in police custody or in prison, to understand what their conditions are and how they are being treated. We also speak with staff and with management, so that we can make a thorough assessment, looking into files, records, and CCTV footage. It’s a very professional methodology of collecting evidence, and then of course, at the end of the visit, speaking with the national government to make recommendations on how to strengthen the protection against torture and inhuman treatment.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [04:47]

Fascinating. So your committee has a mandate approved by the governments of all Council of Europe member states?

Therese Rytter  [04:59]

Yes, that’s right. Every single country has acceded to the relevant European convention and has allowed the CPT to carry out visits into any place of detention within the jurisdiction of the state, and to cooperate with the CPT in good faith. This is a commitment they’ve all made voluntarily.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [05:22]

I see. And how does it work in practice? If you’re going to conduct an inspection of a country, what would typically be the process?

Therese Rytter  [05:34]

We assemble a delegation of independent experts — people with backgrounds as lawyers, medical doctors, perhaps with a specialisation in prison medicine, a psychiatrist, or a former police commissioner. We make sure, depending on what we want to do in the country, that we have the right expertise on board to assess the situation at a professional level. The delegation — say, ten persons — will notify the state, usually three or four weeks in advance, saying we will be visiting and we would like credentials to enter any place. Once we arrive, we receive those credentials from the government. We meet with them, seek to understand recent developments, and they explain what progress has been made and what challenges remain. From there, we conduct fact-finding. For two weeks, we work across the country — moving into police stations and prisons, most of which are not notified in advance. We may notify one or two prisons, but the rest will be surprise visits. For police stations, we can arrive around the clock — very often on a Friday or Saturday night, after there have been incidents in the town. We’ll interview persons who are arrested and detained. Our medical and forensic doctors will examine them, photograph any injuries, and review medical files and use-of-force records. There’s a whole methodology for collecting the information we need to assess how people are being treated. We do this across many police stations and prisons, not only in the capital but in remote areas as well. At the very end of the visit, we meet again with senior government representatives — the Minister of Interior, the head of police, the Minister of Justice, the head of the prison service — and present our preliminary observations, covering both good practices we’ve seen and the concerns we have about continuing patterns of violations, or in some cases, patterns of torture.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [08:20]

So you can actually speak directly with suspects in custody cells or inmates in prisons?

Therese Rytter  [08:32]

Absolutely. We have an unimpeded right to enter these areas, to choose exactly who we want to interview, and to speak with them in private. It will not be those persons the police commissioner directs us to — we choose for ourselves. We always insist that no police officer or prison guard is present, because these conversations must be confidential. Otherwise, the person we are speaking with will not feel able to speak freely.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [09:02]

May I ask — I have a police officer background from Norway and haven’t been able to access prisons or custody cells except in my own country. Could you give us a sense of what you see across Europe?

Therese Rytter  [09:20]

Yes, absolutely. We see the whole spectrum. Some countries have modern custody cells — some even have custody suites, entire modernised areas with good physical conditions: daylight, a bed, necessary facilities. These would also include access to an outdoor yard if the person is held for more than 24 hours, meals served, contact with family. That’s at the very good end of the scale. At the other end, we also see very small, dark cells — sometimes pitch dark — without any daylight, where people are locked up with no food or very little food, limited contact with family, and may be confined for many days with limited access to a toilet. Even within Europe, the range runs from A to Z.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [10:27]

I see. So at one end you have the pressure of being locked up in isolation, and at the other end, direct physical ill-treatment and violence.

Therese Rytter  [10:47]

Absolutely. There’s a whole scale. Torture is at the very high end — the most extreme form of ill-treatment. It is very specifically defined: the infliction of severe pain and suffering, done intentionally, by a law enforcement officer, for a specific purpose — to punish, to extract a confession, to intimidate. In Europe, the torture methods we encounter can include severe beatings, electrical shocks, suspension, or waterboarding. But in police custody, what we more commonly encounter falls under what we label inhuman treatment or degrading treatment. If you are locked in a police cell for three days with very little water and no natural light, that will not constitute torture in itself — but it will still be a violation of the prohibition of inhuman and degrading treatment.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [12:05]

Exactly. And in combination, the cumulative effect may be the same — particularly if the purpose is to make someone confess to a crime they did or did not commit.

Therese Rytter  [12:22]

Yes, it’s always a combination of factors. Ultimately, in Europe, it will be the European Court of Human Rights that decides whether particular treatment constitutes inhuman treatment or torture. The CPT is not a judicial body — we won’t label specific kinds of ill-treatment in those terms. Our role is to prevent these practices from occurring in the first place.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [12:47]

This takes me back to my own time as a detective at Oslo police headquarters, where I have to admit we were quite unaware of what we were dealing with when we held people in custody for weeks and months. I was interviewing suspects myself, and if they didn’t cooperate, we made clear their custody would be prolonged. I don’t think I personally ever told someone to confess or say what I wanted — but it was quite clear, even without saying it explicitly, what they would probably need to say to lift the isolation. Later it occurred to me: in the police, if you want to handle tear gas, you have to experience it yourself. I remember thinking — if you’re a detective dealing with people in custody and isolation, you should probably spend a weekend in total isolation yourself, to understand what that really does to a person.

Therese Rytter  [14:24]

Absolutely. Anyone who plays any role in placing people in solitary confinement — whether a court, a prosecutor, or whoever orders such restrictive measures — ought to understand what it actually means to be placed in solitary confinement. That’s crucial.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [14:47]

I remember my good friend Asbjørn Rachlew — who, as you know, is now the Norwegian representative on your committee — discussing this around 20 years ago with the Norwegian Director of Public Prosecutions, when we were trying to reform suspect interrogation practices. We found your committee’s reports extremely interesting once we discovered they existed. At that time, there were two things the CPT had specifically addressed regarding Norway: a culture of very long periods of custody and isolation, and a lack of recording of interviews.

Therese Rytter  [15:36]

Are you serious? Well — that’s certainly not the case anymore.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [15:42]

Exactly — but this was the late 1990s. I was a relatively young man and a naive believer in Norway as a liberal democracy. I asked people from the Director of Public Prosecutions’ office what they thought about these concerns, why we weren’t addressing them. But there was a sense of dismissiveness — a feeling that the committee simply had to write something about Norway as well, that it wasn’t really that serious.

Therese Rytter  [16:22]

No — I can imagine. Unfortunately, we still see this today. Norway has now introduced recording of interviews, but a large number of countries across Europe are still not recording interviews — with suspects, victims, or witnesses. In that sense, many countries are still where Norway was 20 years ago.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [17:00]

And speaking of that — I believe Denmark still doesn’t have an obligation to record suspect interviews?

Therese Rytter  [17:07]

No, we don’t.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [17:10]

Which is quite striking, given the position Denmark holds that we mentioned earlier. I won’t press you for your personal view on it, but it’s worth reflecting on the fact that even countries with these kinds of international positions need to examine their own practices. Even highly developed democracies can have practices that fall short.

Therese Rytter  [17:45]

This is very true. What we also observe is that some countries progress over time — they develop more refined methods and increasingly comply with human rights standards. But we also see countries that regress. They may have had better practices in the past and then, for various reasons, abandon them. It’s a dynamic situation, and that’s precisely why the CPT cannot simply say: we’ve now visited Norway, Norway is doing well in a number of areas, so they no longer need independent monitoring. Any country can fall back.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [18:31]

Absolutely. I also wanted to ask — because I know from conversations with Asbjørn Rachlew and with yourself — that your work goes beyond the physical and mental treatment of people in custody, prisons, and mental institutions. You also increasingly focus on interview methods.

Therese Rytter  [18:59]

We do. First, of course, the CPT’s original focus in terms of safeguards has been what we call the trinity of rights: anyone who is arrested and detained by the police should have the right to notify their family or another third party; they should have the right to a lawyer; and they should have the right to a doctor, who can verify whether the person may have injuries that perhaps originate from the arrest. Being informed of these rights is fundamentally important — this has been a CPT standard from the very outset. What we’ve also said for more than 25 years is that interviewing methodology is crucial. We have long maintained that the sole purpose of interviewing should be to obtain accurate and reliable information about the matter under investigation — not to obtain a confession from someone who, in the eyes of the officers, may be guilty. The presumption of innocence is central. This is a key principle the CPT has applied since its earliest days.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [20:22]

When you say that, it takes me back to a very important standard you recommended all the way back in 2002 — the year after we started national interview training in Norway. I can’t tell you how important that standard was to us, Therese. Asbjørn Rachlew and I were quite young officers at the time, trying to reform a relatively conservative organisation — the Norwegian Police and Prosecution Service. Finding that kind of standard from a European body like the CPT was so important to us. It validated the idea — it wasn’t just something we’d picked up from studying in the UK. There were other people, and important institutions, who shared the same conviction.

Therese Rytter  [21:15]

Exactly. And of course, the CPT was also heavily inspired by the member states it visited. The United Kingdom was one of the main countries at the time that had introduced the PEACE model, and examining that good practice in the UK was something we also took on board. The principle we’ve emphasised is that one should proceed from the evidence to the suspect, not from the suspect to the evidence. This has been a principle underpinning all our work in police custody.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [21:49]

It’s really fascinating, and I hope the same inspiration you provided to us many years ago is still reaching places where it’s needed. I know that even people within some of these organisations struggle with how they’re perceived when they raise concerns — whether they’re seen as loyal or as critics of their own country.

Therese Rytter  [22:21]

I can imagine. We see this as well. The police also protects itself. That’s something we observe — it’s quite rare, when we discover practices of coercive interrogation or other forms of physical ill-treatment in police custody, to also find effective investigations ending in prosecutions and law enforcement officers actually being brought to justice. In a number of countries in Europe, there is still a long way to go.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [22:51]

I can say that even in this season of Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, there are officers in some European countries who are very reluctant to accept my invitation — though they are honoured to be asked. They are genuinely afraid to speak openly about what their country needs to do to change.

Therese Rytter  [23:12]

Yes, I can very much recognise that.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [23:16]

So again, I think they should look into the CPT reports and find support there, as we did. I’d like to ask you, Therese — do I understand correctly that when you now conduct an inspection in a country, you also look at whether officers are trained and whether there is a policy on how interviews are conducted?

Therese Rytter  [23:43]

Yes, absolutely. We look, of course, at what happens within the place of detention. But if you really want to prevent ill-treatment, you need to look outside it as well. We examine a number of systemic factors. We look at how the police is trained — whether the police academy curriculum includes training on how to interview suspects, victims, or witnesses, and whether that interviewing methodology is consistent with investigative interviewing and modern good practice. We also look at the judiciary — for instance, whether a confession obtained through torture would make it all the way to court, or whether a judge would dismiss such evidence. We review interrogation rules and instructions to see whether they comply with international standards. It’s the whole range of issues — both inside and outside the place of detention — because only through this kind of holistic examination can we propose measures that are genuinely relevant to strengthening protection against ill-treatment.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [24:59]

As you know, I’ve spent much of my professional life trying to introduce investigative interviewing in the Norwegian police and prosecution service, and also in my position at the Norwegian Centre for Human Rights. I work globally with these ideas. But at some point as a police officer you think — perhaps interviewing is the thing, that if we just get the interview right, everything will follow. Sometimes, though, I think we also have to account for the broader context you’re describing. It’s never just one factor.

Therese Rytter  [25:51]

It’s the whole picture, absolutely. And it’s very much about culture — the culture within the police. Is it seen as professional to conduct interviews in an investigative manner, or is coercive interviewing considered acceptable? That’s really where it starts. How does a superior within the police react when someone has forced a confession? But it also extends to the prosecution service — are they willing to accept confessions extracted under torture? Are judges willing to close their eyes? It starts with the police, but it does not stop there. It’s essential to have all justice institutions on board. And ultimately, the political level, because it’s the Minister of Justice or the Minister of the Interior who decides what kind of practice a particular country aspires to.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [26:49]

Exactly. That brings me to a more delicate question, because you mentioned the presumption of innocence, which is a fundamental right for any suspect. I still see, even among researchers across Europe, an engagement with the question of how to make a suspect talk — methods designed to make people cooperate even when they’ve expressed they don’t wish to. I sometimes feel uncomfortable when I reflect on this: is it really the job of a police officer to make someone talk if they’ve already said they don’t want to give a statement?

Therese Rytter  [27:27]

Mm.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [27:33]

…to give a statement in this case.

Therese Rytter  [27:37]

No. The police must respect the presumption of innocence and the right to remain silent. If a criminal suspect does not wish to say anything, there’s not a great deal the police can do — they would have to collect other forms of evidence through other sources, whether documentary or otherwise. Absolutely, one cannot force a suspect to speak, and even less so force a suspect to confess.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [28:03]

Exactly. But very often the physical dimension of coercion is more readily understood and condemned. When it comes to what you might call ‘sweet talk’ — there’s a well-known piece by Professor Peter van Koppen from the Netherlands on what he terms sweet interrogations, where methods of befriending and subtle manipulation are used. That is…

Therese Rytter  [28:22]

Mm.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [28:29]

…not illegal in itself, but it’s done within a context where the person is in isolation, and they are being manipulated into doing things that are not necessarily in their interest.

Therese Rytter  [28:38]

Mm.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [28:44]

So I think it’s really important that people understand what the job actually is. A police officer, in my view, is there to uphold the law and ensure that the suspect knows their rights and can act on them — not to talk them out of exercising those rights.

Therese Rytter  [28:59]

Of course. What you call sweet talk is perhaps at the lower end. That should not happen — manipulation should not happen. But what we are looking at in the CPT is not necessarily that level. We focus on more serious practices: sleep deprivation, interviews lasting many hours with no breaks, insufficient food or water, or — during the interview itself — exposure to threats of torture or threats against the person’s family. These are extremely serious, and they are what we pay closest attention to when we receive allegations of that kind.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [29:46]

Absolutely. And please excuse me for reflecting on the broader cultural dimension here — there still seems to be a culture in which it is considered in the police’s interest for a suspect to talk. I really question that. Should a police officer have any interest in whether a suspect talks or not? Should a detective have any personal stake in the outcome of a case?

Therese Rytter  [30:18]

No. We still see countries where police officers are rewarded for having a high number of solved cases. They may receive better bonuses, better salaries, or even promotions. And for some, extracting a confession is seen as a shortcut to closing a case. This is something the CPT is also very attentive to.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [30:44]

And that’s why culture matters so much. If you want to make changes, you have to work with culture and with a genuine understanding of what the job actually requires. I remember during my PhD research on what I call tipping points in decision-making — factors that can push you towards tunnel vision about guilt — one interviewee in England said something that stayed with me. He observed that even the experience of being a uniformed police officer, where your job is to control crime and stop it, could itself be a tipping point. He said that if you really want to become an investigator, you’re probably a little bit tainted just by coming from a uniformed background. That was a profound insight into what that does to you — because investigation is definitely not about control. It is, and must be, an objective gathering of relevant information.

Therese Rytter  [31:53]

Yes. No, absolutely. I completely agree.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [31:55]

I’m really impressed by the work you’ve done and by what you’ve devoted most of your professional life to. I’m genuinely grateful for what you and the CPT have meant to our country. It was really important to have those reports when we were trying to reform practices in Norway. And I’m not saying everything is good in Norway now — it isn’t — but those reports were an important contribution.

Therese Rytter  [32:15]

I’m very happy to hear that, because this is exactly the main purpose of our work — to help as many states as possible with tailor-made recommendations that speak to the very concrete context we see. And the more reports are made public, the more broadly that influence can spread. There’s also an encouraging international trend: a number of states have now committed to what’s called automatic publication of reports. This means that once we issue a report and send it to the government, they carry out some fact-checking, but within a matter of weeks they make it public. That’s very good practice — it means not only the government and the relevant institutions, the police and the prisons, know what was said, but civil society and the broader public as well. We’re seeing an increasing number of states moving in that direction.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [33:18]

Absolutely. And speaking with you, Therese, reminds me of something important — I think both of us are involved in a European project called Implemendez, which is a funded initiative to broaden understanding of the importance of legal safeguards and scientifically grounded interview methods across Europe. And yet sometimes there seems to be an over-focus on interview methods alone.

Therese Rytter  [33:48]

I agree. Interview methods are key, but it’s not only about the moment of the interview — it’s also about what happened before. What we see in a number of countries is that upon arrest, informal conversations begin immediately. Operational police officers — not investigators — start questioning suspects: where were you, what did you do, what have you committed. These are questions that should not take place without the presence of a lawyer. We see this time and again. So it’s also about looking not just at the official interview with the investigator, but at what happened before and what pressures were placed on the person prior to any formal process. And of course all the safeguards we’ve discussed — the right of access to a lawyer, the right of access to a doctor, the right to be brought before a judge to ensure the detention is lawful — all of these build a protective framework to ensure that the right to respect for personal integrity and dignity is upheld.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [35:01]

We could go on. I couldn’t agree more. I just want to underline: none of this happens in isolation. That was the point of the story I shared from my earlier days — keeping people in custody for prolonged periods, without fully understanding what that meant. If you combine that context with even an apparently open question, you can probably still get the answer that the person knows you want. All of this has to be seen in balance, and only then can we really move forward.

Therese Rytter  [35:38]

No, I agree. I very much agree.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [35:40]

But I have to say — I really encourage our listeners to visit the CPT website through the Council of Europe, and to look into the national reports, as well as the annual recommendations and broader publications, to see how they can provide inspiration for development in all these areas.

Therese Rytter  [36:05]

Exactly. And I would also encourage everyone to explore the CPT’s resources more broadly — we have a substantial collection of standards and good practices covering different areas: police, prison systems, psychiatric hospitals, immigration detention centres. All the areas in which people can be deprived of their liberty. I would encourage anyone to read the country-specific reports, but also to look at the generic standards — because those, at the end of the day, are what every country should aspire to comply with.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [36:46]

Thank you, Therese, and thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. I’ve learnt a great deal.

Therese Rytter  [36:50]

Well, thank you. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to speak with you, as always — always very inspiring.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  [36:56]

Thanks a lot.

---

END OF TRANSCRIPT

© 2026 Davidhorn. All rights reserved.

Transcription

Guest: Ahmet Demirden

Host: Dr Ivar Fahsing

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Dr. Ivar Fahsing  00:00

Welcome. I’m delighted to bring you this next episode of Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. It is a great honour for me to have you on the podcast. You and I know each other quite well by now, but perhaps you could introduce yourself — a little about your background, who you are, and what you do, for our listeners.

Ahmet Demirden  00:22

Absolutely. First of all, thank you very much, Ivar, for the invitation. It is an honour for me to be here as well. My name is Ahmet Demirden. I am currently with the Humber College Criminal Justice Degree Programme in Canada. I am a former police officer with Toronto Police Service — I served there for about ten years. My interest in investigative interviewing began as a police officer; I wanted to explore evidence-based practices. I did my master’s at Brock University on the PEACE model versus the Behavioural Analysis Interview in the United States, and then in around 2016 I decided to move into academia. I completed my PhD in psychology, then moved back to Turkey, where I worked for about eight years at the Turkish National Police Academy. That was a tremendous opportunity. I became involved in in-service training for many police services around the world through the International Police Academy, various international organisations, and some judicial organisations as well. So again, thank you very much for the invitation — it is a real pleasure to be here.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  01:31

Thank you. What an exciting background. And like me, you also combine the practitioner and academic perspectives, which I find genuinely interesting — and which is one of the ideas behind this season. We want to speak with people who also have a foot in the camp of the police or the prosecution service, who can see things from the inside. Because we can all agree that there are many good ideas behind the scientific developments in this field, but theory and practice are not always easy to combine.

Ahmet Demirden  02:06

Yes, absolutely. In some cases it is the legal context; in others it is organisational variation, or personal and interpersonal factors, that can greatly impact the quality and effectiveness of interviewing in any given context.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  02:22

I suppose so. I think, as in life generally, many circumstances have to come together to get things moving. Could I ask you, Ahmet — what would you say is the ethos of investigative interviewing? What is the value system? How would you define it?

Ahmet Demirden  02:46

I think right now we have a kind of universal understanding of the concept of investigative interviewing. In my experience, I observe that around the world we broadly accept — for example — respect for human rights and dignity, seeking the facts rather than focusing solely on obtaining a confession, and transparency and accountability. These are not only desirable qualities; they are legal requirements, both in inquisitorial and adversarial justice systems, and they are what the public expects. So I think that is very clear.

That said, while human rights, dignity, fact-seeking, transparency, and accountability are broadly agreed upon, there may be some disagreement among practitioners and academics about the relative importance of any one of them. Perhaps we also need to look more closely at practitioners’ motivations in investigative interviewing — and this is my psychologist’s perspective coming through.

In general, we have seen recurring challenges across many jurisdictions. We have the PEACE model, which has been in practice for many years and is supported by a great deal of research on interviewing effectiveness, yet we still face certain vulnerabilities.

I think we need to look more carefully at the motivational dimension. There is a theoretical framework in psychology around regulatory focus motivation: broadly, some people tend toward a promotion focus, while others tend toward a prevention focus. Let me explain how this relates to investigative interviewing. Some investigators may focus on obtaining a confession — not because they have ill intent, but because they define that as the primary objective. That is a promotion focus. Whereas others may be more focused on the admissibility of evidence: ‘I am gathering information, but it must hold up in court.’ That is a prevention focus.

What I have come to conclude is that poor practices in investigative interviewing are not necessarily driven by individual officers with bad intentions. It is not all about bad apples. Promotion focus investigators tend to be motivated by advancement and accomplishment — closing a case, moving quickly. Prevention focus motivation involves more emphasis on safety and obligation: paying closer attention to transparency and accountability. Promotion focus can manifest as risk-taking; prevention focus tends toward vigilance and adherence to rules.

These individual differences are not necessarily case-specific — they reflect how we interact with the world. And importantly, while they are partly a personality trait, they can also be primed. So in my in-service training work, I focus not only on knowledge — which is important — but also on attitudes and competency. Do officers feel competent? Do they believe in the effectiveness of the method? Do they have the skills to implement it? That operationalisation is what matters.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  08:07

That is a really interesting framing, Ahmet — and I think you are right. There is a ‘why’ dimension. If someone tells me I should stop brushing my teeth with my right hand and start using my left, I would very much want to know why.

Ahmet Demirden  08:25

Absolutely. And as you will know from your experience, police officers are often asked to follow orders that they may not have the opportunity to question — not all the time, but operationally, they have to keep moving. That does not mean their attitudes are unimportant. They are vital.

In my experience — I have now been working in this field for close to twenty years, twelve of those facilitating training — it is very rare that practitioners do not know what they are supposed to do. They know it. But in some cases they may feel, for example, ‘If the person is innocent, why would they lie? I wouldn’t lie.’ Well, perhaps you would not, but people have different motivations for giving false confessions.

And this concern is not limited to any specific geography. Based on my experience across a number of jurisdictions, I would say effective investigative interviewing is important globally — and equally important is how we define the concept of effectiveness.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  09:51

Absolutely. And of course, what you are saying reminds me that we also have to recognise that we are all goal-driven human beings. Sometimes those goals are obvious — we talked earlier about you playing football with your son this morning; I was out catching lobster with my son. And you could ask: what is the real goal, Ahmet? Is it football, or is it simply doing something meaningful with our families?

Ahmet Demirden  10:20

Absolutely. And when it comes to investigative interviewing, as we have discussed, yes, there are still challenges, but we have come a long way. I remember back in 2006 and 2007, there was no formal training on effective investigative interviewing in North America. There was the Reid Behavioural Analysis Interview — and we know what the evidence base for that looks like.

Motivation drives not only individuals but organisations. For example, in the law enforcement hiring process, many police services use the MMPI as a personality assessment. As a psychologist, I know it is not a valid or reliable measure for that purpose — but a civilian psychologist provides that opinion to the police service, and that shifts the accountability. The challenge is not limited to policing: it extends to risk assessments across the judicial system. We have known since the 1970s that unstructured risk assessments perform little better than chance, yet they continue to be used.

When a suspect is being interviewed, that person is also a member of the public. When you interact with them, you are communicating a message — about how law enforcement operates in your jurisdiction — to their family, friends, and community. The goal compounds. It is not only about the investigation; it is about public relationships as well.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  12:26

You mentioned that investigators can have either a preventive or a promotional mindset. If we go back to Turkey and your experience there — however far back you want to go — what would you say was the dominant culture amongst police officers or detectives in terms of those two orientations?

Ahmet Demirden  12:54

Well, first, some general context: Turkey has an inquisitorial justice system, which is quite different from North America. In that system, it is the prosecutor who is legally authorised to interview suspects. Police officers also interview suspects or witnesses, but they do so on behalf of and under the guidance of the prosecutor.

Interestingly, within that legal framework, if a person gives a statement without legal counsel present, they have the right to recant that statement in court. That sounds protective, and in principle it is. But I think that practice may have created an environment in which officers feel a shift of responsibility — ‘If they want to recant, they can; their lawyer will sort it out.’ So there appears to be an attitude shift whereby responsibility moves to the legal system.

What I would be very interested in exploring — and I have not looked into the research on this — is: when suspects do recant their statements in court, what is the actual impact on the verdict? Because, as you know, we are all human beings — and so are judges. Once you have heard a confession, even if it is subsequently recanted and formally excluded, you know it and you cannot unknow it.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  14:49

As they say in England: you can’t unring the bell.

Ahmet Demirden  14:52

Exactly. And this, with all due respect, is a perennial challenge for forensic psychologists working in the criminal justice system — going all the way back to Hugo Münsterberg, the first forensic psychologist to work in the United States. When you try to tell judges that their decision-making is not purely rational, they do not always welcome it. And yet we know, for example, that blood sugar levels — simply whether they are hungry or not — can impact bail decisions. They are human beings.

So this apparent legal protection — the right to recant — may actually backfire on the officer’s vigilance during the investigation. The shift of responsibility to the courts or the legal system can create an attitude of ‘I will take your statement; if you want to recant, that is your right, here is your lawyer.’ Vigilance then becomes someone else’s responsibility.

Overall, based on my anecdotal observation rather than research findings, officers in Turkey appear to be prevention-focused. But how that motivation is translated into behaviour is more complicated, because of that shift of responsibility. That is why it is important to look at individual officers’ tendencies, motivations, skills, and competence — while also recognising that they are operating within a judicial system, and can only influence that system to a certain degree.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  16:43

Based not on research but on your personal knowledge — have there been cases in Turkey of miscarriages of justice or other scandals linked to police interviewing?

Ahmet Demirden  16:55

Well, as I mentioned, investigative interviewing in Turkey is formally the responsibility of the prosecution office, so it is slightly different from North America. I cannot recall a specific case right now, but I am sure there have been instances of false confessions. The challenge in Turkey is somewhat different from the North American context. In North America, if a statement or confession is voluntary and the suspect has been informed of their rights to counsel, it is generally admissible even without a lawyer present, provided there are no signs of coercion. It can later be found to constitute a false confession.

In Turkey, because suspects have the right to recant without counsel, many statements may not even enter as evidence. So by official records, you may have fewer recorded false confessions — not because they did not occur, but because the statement was withdrawn before it could become evidence. The challenge may therefore be more complicated than a straightforward false confession: a decision-maker who has heard a statement that is later recanted is now influenced by knowledge they are supposed to set aside. Does that make sense?

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  18:49

Exactly. And many countries organise it that way — with the prosecution formally responsible and the police acting on their behalf. But as I said, I think investigative interviewing is also about relationships, isn’t it? It is about how you relate to your own citizens. Regardless of the court outcome, the person who was interviewed will carry an impression of how they were treated. If you think about that relational dimension, what would you say?

Ahmet Demirden  19:41

I think right now policing more broadly is moving towards what we call value-based policing. It is not only about community-based policing — which remains important — but that relationship with the public is becoming a paramount objective, in Turkey, Canada, the United States, and elsewhere. The relational importance of investigative interviewing is increasingly recognised.

However, we also need to look honestly at the realities — for example, caseload. If an officer is carrying 300 pending cases, and I would love for them to start every interview with rapport-building and open-ended questions using PEACE techniques, but they have ten or fifteen minutes — how practical is that?

What I consistently find in my experience is that similar challenges surface whether you are in a Turkish, Canadian, or other jurisdiction. There are individual differences between officers — they are human beings with their own challenges. There is organisational demand, societal demand, and everything happening globally that affects them locally. And we are rightly expecting them to commit to relational, value-based policing.

That takes time. It comes down to survival instinct. First, I want to be safe on duty — physically, psychologically, and legally. Only once that safety is assured can I focus on investigative priorities. And chances are, my supervisors — however much they may speak about the importance of relationships — are ultimately going to measure me on operational objectives such as cases closed.

Right now I am working with a local police service in Canada on a three-year project evaluating the effectiveness of their training. The preliminary findings suggest the training itself is current, the instructors are competent, and officers demonstrate improved knowledge, skills, and competence after training. But what appears to be missing is what we call the required drivers on the job: the systems that monitor, reinforce, and reward good practice.

Research suggests that training accounts for only around fifteen per cent of performance on the job. The remaining eighty-five per cent comes from those required drivers. So relational or value-based policing — anywhere in the world — requires not just training, but those drivers. We also need to be realistic about what we are asking of officers. Every year, officers are carrying more tools and equipment on their vests — body-worn cameras, additional use-of-force options. It gets heavier and heavier. We need to be cognisant of that as well.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  23:58

I think you are right. And there is another aspect to this when we talk about the ethos of investigative interviewing — one that links closely to your opening point about promotional versus preventional mindsets. From a professional standpoint, there is also a process quality focus, is there not? Do you agree?

Ahmet Demirden  24:27

Absolutely. I want to be clear that regulatory focus theory — I should credit Higgins for that — is a substantial area of social psychology and we cannot do it justice in a few minutes. But yes, the prevention focus is more about vigilance, which comes with procedural attention. It is not ‘I want to get a confession’ but ‘I want to get the information, I want to get to the facts — and I need to do it correctly, without making mistakes.’ The promotion focus, by contrast, is more about trying different approaches in pursuit of a goal: ‘That didn’t work, let me try another way.’

To use an analogy: if you are a vigilant person holding a hammer, you will be careful, deliberate — focused on not hitting your hand. If you have a promotion focus, you will hit the nail several times, adjusting as you go, unconcerned about the process as long as you achieve the result.

I think it is something worth exploring in relation to investigative interviewing practice. More broadly, though, at the conceptual level, I feel there is now reasonable consistency and agreement on the ethics of investigative interviewing and the importance of rapport-building. That is broadly understood. The question now is: how do we translate that into a skill, and how do we change attitudes? Some people believe communication is an innate ability — you are either a good talker or you are not. But we know there is a skills dimension. Interviewing can be improved, just as you can improve your running even if you will never be the fastest in the world.

For police officers, testimony in court is a genuinely challenging process — even for expert witnesses. Officers tend to have a prevention focus around avoiding difficulties or errors in the future. Where I think we are now in the investigative interviewing field is that we need to focus more on attitude change, and on competency and confidence, at the individual level. And at the organisational level, we need those required drivers — borrowing from the Kirkpatrick model of training evaluation — to observe, monitor, support, reinforce, and reward good practices.

What I find in many police organisations is that, for various reasons — cost, prioritisation, practicality — there are no operational required drivers for interviewing performance. Training is given, and then officers go into the field. If there is an error, it will surface in court. I think we should go beyond that, and build required drivers not only for successful prosecutions and fact-seeking, but also because it is fundamental to relationship-building with the community.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  28:15

Absolutely. Your analogy around required drivers made me think of driving and shooting — activities where it is relatively easy to measure whether you are doing it correctly. If you keep the vehicle on the road and return safely, you probably did well. If you hit the target, you did well. And what I reflected on is that perhaps we also need a clearer definition of what ‘good’ looks like in investigative interviewing — so we can more readily say: ‘Officer A, this is why you performed well. Officer B, you need additional development in these areas.’ If we had the right organisational culture, as is obvious in driving and firearms, we simply would not allow an officer to conduct interviews without meeting that standard.

Ahmet Demirden  29:27

Absolutely. I am glad you raised organisational culture, because it is important. We have seen cultural shifts before — in mental health, for example. It used to be: you are an officer, you need to be tough, do not complain, keep going. Now we are in a position where officers also need support; they are human beings too. That shift happened.

In investigative interviewing, because the results and the feedback are not immediate — a case may not be dismissed for months or years — there is less of that reinforcing loop. When I was a police officer, back around 2006, I hoped someone would review my recordings and give me feedback. No one did. I had to ask for it. That is what I mean by required drivers. If I make an error in an investigative interview, it may surface in court, the case may be dismissed — and my organisation may never even hear about it.

Let me give you an example. A local police service in the Greater Toronto Area, around 2010 I believe, interrogated a witness — not a suspect — in a homicide investigation, pressuring her to implicate her boyfriend. It was all recorded, audio and video. The witness repeatedly said she had not seen anything, but the officers told her she was a single mother and would be charged with obstruction of justice. It was on the record. The case was dismissed in court, it became public — and then, as far as the public knew, that was the end of it. No follow-up.

If that had been a vehicle collision or an unlawful use of force, the feedback would have been immediate and the consequences clear. With investigative interviewing, we still have a long way to go in demonstrating its importance at the organisational level, so that culture can shift toward evidence-based practice.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  32:39

I was thinking — because we talked about cars and firearms, which are technical — you get clear feedback immediately if something goes wrong. Could technology in investigative interviewing help us move toward better feedback mechanisms?

Ahmet Demirden  33:02

Absolutely, yes. This is actually another project I am working on with Dr. Nicole Luke at Brock University. I think we now have the technology to use as a tool, at least in the training phase and subsequently for follow-up — whether that is VR simulation or AI-based feedback agents.

As I said earlier, perhaps officers’ interviews could be reviewed by senior officers who provide feedback. But we also need to be realistic: officers may not have the time or luxury for that. And there are legal considerations that would need to be addressed. AI can facilitate this. AI agents could certainly support that process — but first we need the motivation to invest in it. I think it is coming.

Hard skills, technical skills, are easier to observe and measure. Soft skills are more difficult. Verbal behaviour is relatively amenable to observation, measurement, evaluation, and feedback. But when you get into paralinguistic cues, micro-expressions, subtle signs of aggression in language — those are much harder to capture and assess. That is partly why some people think communication is an ability rather than a skill. Investigative interviewing is a skill. It can be improved.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  34:48

I share that optimism about the role of technology. Think about weapons training — we use simulators today precisely because you cannot responsibly send people out without first establishing whether they can handle not only the technical aspects but the situational ones. Perhaps our community could move toward simulators that can assess whether someone is a safe interviewer.

Ahmet Demirden  35:21

Absolutely. Following research developments around the world, it is interesting — when you meet with international researchers or practitioners, you observe the same concerns and the same principles. I visited Oslo in 2021 or 2022 for a workshop on investigative interviewing, and it was remarkable: without any formal collaboration, by the third day, participants were saying, ‘You are not from our team, but you are talking about exactly the same things.’ Because the research findings point in the same direction. The same ethos, the same principles, emerging from different starting points.

That is encouraging. And technology people are working on this too. It will come, and it will greatly facilitate the implementation of effective interviewing techniques. On a side note — because I use the word ‘effective’ — operationalisation of these concepts matters enormously. What is effective interviewing? For some, it means obtaining a confession. For others, it means the number of cases closed. We need to work on defining that clearly, and then consider how technology can reinforce the right concept.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  36:53

I definitely think so. May I ask you — going back to the Turkish context — how widespread do you think audio-visual recording of interviews is in Turkey today? Is it routine or less common?

Ahmet Demirden  37:08

I am not entirely sure. There is a gap in the research, and I am looking into that. But I think there is variation. Recording tends to occur in the form of a written statement, which the suspect or person of interest and their legal counsel then review before signing or declining to sign.

Recording statements is obviously vital. But some of the challenges I described go beyond whether statements are recorded. Because these statements — whether audio, video, or written — can be recanted in court on first appearance and may not enter as evidence at all. So they may not appear in any statistics on miscarriages of justice or false conviction, because they were never entered as evidence. But how they influence the decision-maker is worth exploring.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  38:09

I was thinking about it more as a data resource for learning. If we want to develop the kind of technology that could create a simulation environment — the more real interview data we have from recordings across different jurisdictions, cultures, and situations — the better we can understand what interview behaviours lead to good outcomes and what behaviours do not. That is why I wanted to know whether they are actually recording interviews. Because that would be the most valuable data source.

Ahmet Demirden  38:52

Investigative interviewing is communication, so local variation will always exist. I am not sure there is a universal set of verbal or paralinguistic cues that would translate perfectly across jurisdictions — but I think they can all be operationalised at a local level.

Take interrogation terminology, for example. In the Canadian context, technically it is ‘investigative interviewing,’ not interrogation. But when the objective is obtaining a confession, whatever you call it, it effectively becomes an interrogation. In the Turkish context, technically only a court judge can interrogate a suspect — prosecutors and law enforcement technically do not interrogate. And yet when you listen to recordings, you can often detect that the objective is a confession, and that false evidence is being introduced. So each jurisdiction has its strengths and weaknesses.

Introduction of false evidence is legal in Canada and illegal in Turkey, for instance. We can perhaps develop a universal set of principles, but we are always working within specific legal frameworks. And law enforcement and prosecutors function as agents of the courts. Some of the challenges therefore involve the judicial system itself.

I try to be careful here, because forensic psychologists have historically had difficult experiences when challenging courts and their outcomes. Judges everywhere are professionals, and objective triers of fact — in principle. But with investigative interviewing practices, we should also be exploring the human dimensions of judicial decision-making. We have come a long way in recognising the human aspects of law enforcement officers. Judges are also human. They have cognitive biases — and as I mentioned, something as basic as blood sugar levels can influence decisions. That needs to be explored too.

In both Canada and Turkey, my experience is that police officers tend to be more receptive to training and to academic input than judicial authorities. And in Turkey, I think lawyers also need training in investigative interviewing — because you are representing your client in an interview, and that requires understanding the process, not just knowing the law. Similarly for judges: if the assumption is that the right to recant is sufficient protection, is it? We need to look into that. If it is not, we need to find ways to improve it.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  42:26

Time has flown, Ahmet. I have to say, this has been a real eye-opener for me. You have brought in some new perspectives that have given me a great deal to think about. I hope our listeners have found it equally interesting.

Ahmet Demirden  42:39

It is always a pleasure talking with you, Ivar.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  42:41

Fantastic. And I should say it has been a unique opportunity to hear your perspectives from Canada, and to gain some insight into the situation in Turkey and the comparison between the two. Thank you very much, Ahmet.

Ahmet Demirden  43:02

The pleasure is mine. Thank you very much for the podcast and for having me. It has been a real pleasure.

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END OF TRANSCRIPT

© 2026 Davidhorn. All rights reserved.

Transcription

Guests: Julia Korkman

Host: Dr Ivar Fahsing

Recorded: 28 November 2025

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Dr. Ivar Fahsing  00:01

Welcome, Julia Korkman, to our podcast.

Julia Korkman  00:04

Thank you so much.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  00:04

I’m so honoured to have you here, Julia. I have to say to our listeners who don’t know you that at least in the Nordic region you are quite a famous psychologist within this area. So it’s a big honour having you here and I’m so impressed with what you are doing not only in Finland but across Europe.

Julia Korkman  00:25

Thank you.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  00:26

Julia, this season of Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, the focus is on implementation of investigative interviewing — the need for it, what it really is, and why it’s important, seen from different perspectives and contexts. So may I ask you: what do you think is the ethos of investigative interviewing?

Julia Korkman  00:54

There would be so many different points of departure to answer that question. But I think the first and foremost answer would perhaps be that if investigative interviews are done the wrong way, they can lead to quite terrible miscarriages of justice for all involved parties.

My own trajectory within legal psychology started with observing the way in which children were interviewed in Finland some 20-plus years ago in the investigation of particularly sexual abuse cases, which was really poor. I’m glad to say it’s a bit better today, but it’s still a difficult area. If you interview young children in a way that is not recommendable, you will inevitably end up with problematic accounts that include mistakes and can lead to completely wrongful conclusions. And we know from the large number of cases investigated in the Nordics, in Europe, and globally — wrongful convictions in which investigative interviewing has a core part to play.

One of my favourite areas of research is memory — human memory. I can’t get over how surprising it is that although the legal system was built by human beings for human beings, and the basic material we look at when assessing crimes against persons is memory, these processes have far too little recognition of how humans actually work. In my country, as in many others, police officers and justice professionals are not obliged to have any training in how memory works — which is extraordinary, given that it is precisely what they work with when investigating crimes and trying to assess whether accounts are credible or reliable.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  03:32

Absolutely. My work lately has been mostly on decision-making, and there is exactly the same issue — a common assumption that if you get information, you will automatically reach the right conclusion. It’s interesting to see how little attention is paid to that process, even though when you examine some Supreme Court verdicts there are actually good traditions of decision-making. But that good decision-making doesn’t seem to be made explicit.

Julia Korkman  04:10

I think you’re right. When looking at how judicial decision-making is conducted in many countries, including my own, judges are required to describe how they came to a certain conclusion. I train judges quite a bit here in Finland and also in Sweden, and I’ve heard many times judges comment on the fact that writing down why you came to a certain conclusion is an efficient measure to prevent the worst kinds of quick and poor decision-making.

I heard one judge say that throughout an entire case he was pretty sure how it would turn out — and then when he came to write the decision, he thought: this doesn’t add up. I can’t write that he’s guilty simply because my gut feeling is that he probably did it. The evidence just doesn’t support it. This is what research tells us: if you take the time to logically assess the evidence, it prevents you from falling into those traps.

This kind of slower, analytical assessment is of course something we would like to see more of in the police as well. One struggle in my country is that there is no explicit requirement to carry out hypothesis testing and actually document the assessment. That would be really valuable. I am still quite optimistic about the future here, though — some Supreme Court decisions over the last ten years have shown an impressive understanding of how human beings work.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  06:34

I remember many years ago — at least 25 years ago — when I was just starting to do training in Norway. I invited a senior appeal court judge from Oslo to talk to my students about how the judiciary perceived our work on interviewing, and how we could improve from their perspective. That was quite rare at the time; judges didn’t really want to talk to police. He said: ‘There are a lot of good things going on in the police — but why don’t you try to help the witnesses to say the same thing when they come to court? Because after all, you have been talking to all of them. So why should I sit there as a judge and listen to all these different stories?’ That was quite something.

Julia Korkman  07:40

So you should just train them to have the same story so he doesn’t need to bother about it?

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  07:46

Because — you know what happened, don’t you?

Julia Korkman  07:49

That’s interesting. It’s something police officers have also noted — that if you’re a police officer heard in court, you’re given quite a lot of credibility, in a way that is based on nothing. It’s not as if police officers have better eyesight or perception than other people. The same seems to go for medical doctors — they tend to be very highly regarded, which of course they should be, but they need to be scrutinised in the same way as any other expert witness, with attention to what they are actually basing their assessments on.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  08:37

Exactly. As I’ve described, I was expecting from my PhD — with my brilliant supervisors Per Anders Granhagen and Karl Ask — to find some kind of generic model for good thinking. But I didn’t find it. Where I did find inspiration for a model was in descriptive research from Martin Innes and others who observed how experienced detectives actually behaved on their best days, and tried to conceptualise what that looked like. I think we also have to communicate to practitioners that this is not about changing everything they do — research shows there are things they are already doing correctly; we’re just trying to help them understand why.

Julia Korkman  10:13

That’s a really good point, and I also think this kind of positive research is important. We can of course learn a great deal from miscarriages of justice. In Sweden, for example, there have been several such cases — including the Kailinna case, in which a man was wrongfully convicted for 13 years before being released. A strong confirmation bias meant investigators were looking in only one direction and not taking into account evidence pointing elsewhere. Within that investigation, there was one detective who from the outset was arguing they should look in other directions — and he was essentially frozen out of the group and had to go on sick leave.

This points to an organisational problem. The police in many countries — certainly in Finland and Sweden — have a very old-fashioned, top-down structure where the chief of each department has enormous power over how work is organised, and there are very few requirements around hypothesis testing or an open culture in which people can voice their thoughts freely. It should be better structured.

There’s also something that goes back to what you noted about cross-professional communication. Here in Finland in the south, where there are more people, training for lawyers, police, prosecutors, and judges tends to happen separately, within their own professional groups. Whereas in the north, where distances are long and there are fewer professionals, they tend to train together. I’ve been invited to Lapland several times for full-day events that bring together all criminal justice actors, and it is genuinely beneficial for everyone. It leads to lively discussions — but that’s good. In the south, you sometimes hear tiring conversations where defence attorneys complain about the police or the police complain about defence attorneys. Bringing them together creates far more interest in genuinely understanding each other’s positions and finding common ground.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  14:42

That’s really interesting. Part of what people like you can do is be a mediator between those groups, delivering the same message to different audiences. And if those groups don’t communicate with each other as much as they could, at least there is someone communicating to all of them.

Julia Korkman  15:16

Exactly. And there are related groups outside the criminal justice system as well. We have a research group called Psych Aid at Åbo Akademi working on asylum procedures and how they can be improved. One thing we hear quite often is that the lawyers working with asylum seekers and the asylum officials can be quite frustrated with each other — yet both groups agree that some professionals in each field are excellent and some are poor. Here too, collaboration would be in the best interest of everyone, and especially in the interests of the legal rights of the asylum seeker.

And then there are interpreters. We really need to train interpreters in the context of investigative interviews. I’ve had the joy of doing this in Finland in recent years for court interpreters who specialise in child forensic interview interpretation. Many of them were highly skilled already, but when trained in suggestibility, open-ended questioning, and the NICHD protocol, several said they had probably been doing things wrong — because even though they were told to phrase questions exactly as the interviewer does, without understanding why open-ended questions matter, they weren’t always able to do that. They were trying to help the child talk, and we know that if the right instruments aren’t there, that inclination to help can lead to suggestion.

My friend and colleague Sarah Landström — professor in Gothenburg and one of our best child interview researchers — was recently asked what the main problem is when child interviews go wrong. She said she thinks it’s the incredible desire to help children tell. If you don’t possess the right technique, if you don’t understand that ‘helpful’ questions can be detrimental if they’re not open-ended and grounded in the child’s own experience, the consequences can be disastrous.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  21:10

It is really interesting how important language is. I sometimes think that because language and culture are so deeply interwoven, we are habits of our own language. I remember saying for years: you have to start the interview with an open-ended question. But obviously that doesn’t always work in a communicative setting — you have to break the ice first. We often do it in a subtle way: in the rapport-building phase before this interview we chatted informally, with a closed question. But that subtle invite isn’t really closed — it’s inviting you to say as much as you find appropriate.

Julia Korkman  22:20

And it would have been very strange if you had said: ‘Tell me everything about your weekend.’

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  22:24

Wouldn’t it? Completely — you would be invading my space in a very rude way. I think it’s so interesting how we probably have to focus even more in the future on how the advice from psychology looks in a cultural and linguistic context.

Julia Korkman  22:47

Luckily there’s a lot of interesting research on this. Annelies Reedevel, a professor from the Netherlands, is leading very interesting work on culture within investigative and legal psychology. One of her points is that we cannot expect individual police officers to have a deep understanding of all the cultures they may encounter — but they can have cultural humility and at least a minimum understanding of how they themselves are shaped by their own culture. It’s the beginning of Socratic insight into how much you don’t know.

You were working quite a bit in Southeast Asia, and our interpreters from there noted that in some contexts it is much more difficult than in Northern Europe to say that you don’t know something or didn’t understand a question — it would be considered rude. That’s something that needs to be explicitly discussed before an interview.

I also think of my early experience with the NICHD protocol. We sometimes noted — with some amusement — that it seemed to depart from the assumption that if you ask a young child to ‘tell me about yourself’, they would start talking. In Finland, people are not taught to be especially talkative. That said, I think the culture has shifted: children today are much more encouraged to speak their minds. But other things remain very culturally dependent. How we socialise, how we build rapport — these differ significantly. A German study, for example, found that saying a child’s name repeatedly — ‘Eva, how are you? Nice to see you, Eva’ — which might be fine in an American context, would feel immensely odd in Finland or Germany. These are things that need to be considered when applying any protocol to a specific context.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  27:43

Absolutely. In many of the Asian countries where I work, it’s considered completely inappropriate to use the word ‘I’ — in collective cultures, focusing on oneself is improper, so it’s implicit. You just say ‘eat rice’ rather than ‘I eat rice’. And if you then try to translate that into a different context and a different language, you lose a lot.

Julia Korkman  28:29

There is really interesting research on how adults who grew up in a traditional Chinese context recall their childhood experiences compared to those who grew up in a US context — specifically in relation to memories of what they did themselves. In more individualistic cultures, children are taught from a young age to talk about themselves and their own experiences. In more collectivistic cultures, children are not supposed to focus solely on their own perspective — and this is reflected in their adult memories: they remember less of what they themselves did, but more about the group.

And of course, one thing we need to avoid when discussing cultural differences is to attach labels and assume: ‘You are from the Arab region, so you must be this or that.’ It is about openness — the realisation that we are all children of our own cultures, and that there is far more variation than we tend to think. Luckily, there’s a growing recognition of this within the research tradition, which has historically been very Western-focused.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  30:11

Speaking of shifts — could you tell me a little about how investigative interviewing is being applied in a Finnish context? We’ve spoken about your lecturing and mentoring of different actors, but thinking more specifically about the police: how are they implementing this knowledge, from your perspective?

Julia Korkman  31:06

I think I have a fairly good understanding of this. My colleague Tom Pakkanen did a comprehensive review of all the studies on how the Finnish police conduct investigative interviews. What emerged is that the picture is quite good when it comes to child interviews: there is clear guidance, strong recommendations, a one-year training required under the Pre-Trial Investigation Act, dedicated expert units, and forensic psychologists handling the most complex cases. That part is well established.

The problem is that it essentially ends there. There has been increasing pressure to improve investigations of human trafficking — which is welcome — but there is no equivalent pressure for other serious crime types. Femicide, for example, is a significant problem in Finland, but it has not gained the attention that would require specialists. Sexual crimes are similar: some departments have specialised units doing excellent work and video recording all interviews, but it is entirely down to individual departments.

For child suspects — young people under 18 involved in crime — there is an incredible gap. We have specialists who know how to interview reluctant children who have sent images online, for instance, and those children are often in a similar position to child suspects: they’ve done something wrong, they’re uncertain whether to talk, they’re very dependent on how the investigator approaches them. But we don’t apply this knowledge to child suspects. And as we know, child suspects are often also victims — from vulnerable backgrounds, sometimes manipulated by older criminals. Many would probably be quite willing to talk if approached properly. But there is no specific training for those officers.

For adult interviews: as I said, my colleague went through everything available, and there is almost nothing on investigative interviewing in basic police studies. There is a small two-week course for experienced officers, but only a small group takes it each year. A study a couple of years ago found that officers around Finland knew almost nothing about different interviewing methods. The only one that was familiar to them was the NICHD. At least they hadn’t been taught Reid either — so I suppose that’s a plus.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  36:33

Yes, I’ll bless that.

Julia Korkman  36:36

It was striking how little they knew about any other interviewing methods. One of my colleagues from the police — who was for a long time the chief detective at the sexual crimes unit at the Helsinki police — took a legal psychology training course I coordinate. She later said that it was quite a shock to have been working as a trained police officer, in investigations where the interview is the most crucial tool, and to realise that you have to look outside the police to actually learn about methods that were created by the police and for the police. We’re not really doing that well here.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  37:35

That is really interesting. I think people from outside the Nordics tend to assume that Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Iceland are quite similar in these areas — because we are very similar in so many other aspects of society and culture. But on this particular topic, there are quite significant differences. And I think what you point out about recording is probably, at least in Norway, what was the tipping point.

I myself, together with my good friend and colleague Asbjørn Rachlew, led a national pilot project on recording all the way back in 1998. At that time, digital recording equipment was quite clunky and very expensive. The Minister of Justice invested significantly in testing different equipment. We distributed it to high-level departments around the country, and my job was to gather the experiences back. But we got nothing. After a year, there was no feedback.

We needed to have a frank conversation. Doesn’t it work? Is something wrong with the technology? There was complete silence. Then one evening we went out for dinner and people started to talk. One officer said: ‘Ivar, I don’t feel comfortable with recording myself — because no one ever taught me how to do an interview.’ That was the moment it became clear: the reluctance isn’t just about justice. It’s also about officers’ wellbeing, isn’t it?

Julia Korkman  39:48

[Agrees]

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  39:49

And that was the turning point. I said: of course, if we’re going to implement recording as a Norwegian standard, the first standard is to teach officers basic interviewing skills — memory, human memory, communication. And I think that was also a really important thing about building this properly, because then they actually needed it. We also made it slightly exclusive: you are not going to do this unless you are trained for it. We have to take care of you.

Of course, you can debate that — because the people without the training were probably the ones who really should have been recorded. But on the other hand, it gave it an aura of exclusivity: I am certified for recording. That became a skill, a badge. People wanted to be part of the group certified to conduct profiled, important interviews. I think it’s so interesting how something can be reframed into a culture of positive drive.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  40:29

A final question — because you’re also doing a lot of interesting research in Finland on how technology can help implement or develop these kinds of skills and practices.

Julia Korkman  41:23

That would be a topic for a whole new discussion — but thinking very pragmatically: there are quite a few Finnish investigators who would actually want to do video recording, but some are not permitted to within their department. We are on our way, and we are typically following the example of Sweden, where the situation was also quite poor until a couple of years ago when new rules came in allowing initial interviews to be recorded and, in some cases, presented as evidence in court.

One question I always get is: who is going to store all these video recordings? And how are we going to manage transcription — it’s so costly, and if prosecutors receive 13,000 pages of transcripts, that’s genuinely difficult. In Sweden, I’ve understood they now use very good automatic transcription — tools like Whisper and similar — and apparently also a programme that generates summaries for prosecutors. Of course these can’t be trusted completely, and there will be things you still need to go back and check. But the technology will make it much easier.

In recent years I’ve also been looking quite a lot at human trafficking cases, many of which involve parties from around the world — in Finland we’ve had cases with berry pickers from Thailand, for example. You can either fly all these witnesses here, or you can ensure really decent ways of hearing people remotely. I’m currently doing research on hearing people remotely to court. There are a lot of good possibilities — pragmatic things like ensuring people are heard from safe spaces, with legal support and an understanding of the procedures. Cross-border hearings could become much easier and much more humane.

And of course, one thing Norway has done for decades is preserve pretrial investigation evidence. If a victim develops Alzheimer’s, or dies, or is unable to speak about every aspect of a crime two or three years later in court proceedings that have dragged on, their voice can still be heard through the video-recorded interview.

We also just published a study — the first author is Lisa Järvilehto, who is both an investigator with more than a decade of child abuse investigations and an excellent researcher. One of her studies examined using AI to help generate meaningful, relevant alternative hypotheses to child abuse allegations — and AI was actually very good at this. Experts are then well-placed to discard the ones that aren’t relevant. She is now looking at the extent to which AI can help human interviewers improve their questions.

With all the limits that implies, I do think we can develop very useful tools for interview training, interview assessment, and perhaps even real-time aids in investigative interviews. But we need to be very mindful not to deploy anything before we can ensure it does not lead to negative consequences. I don’t see AI taking over investigative interviewing in any conceivable future — but I do see AI as a potentially very helpful assistant to it, and very much so in training and assessment contexts.

Dr. Ivar Fahsing  47:03

Julia, we could go on for the rest of the day with another list of really interesting topics. Thank you for a truly engaging and inspiring conversation.

Julia Korkman  47:10

Thank you — it was a pleasure, as always.

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END OF TRANSCRIPT

© 2026 Davidhorn. All rights reserved.

Transcription

Guests: Susanne Flølo & Prof. Christopher E. Kelly

Host: Børge Hansen

Recorded: 20 February 2026

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Børge Hansen (Host)

In a healthy democracy, the rule of law is only as strong as its most hidden moments. We talk about justice in public — in courtrooms and policy debates — but the real test happens when the door is closed. In that room, the tension is not just about solving a crime. It is about whether a system can stay objective under pressure. Can we move past confession-driven practices and treat interviewing as a forensic craft built for reliable facts?  00:00

I am Børge Hansen and this is Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.

In this series, we look at the mechanics of justice — from how interviews are conducted to how evidence holds up under scrutiny. Today is about the gap between what we know works and what actually happens under pressure: practice, supervision, and the minimum safeguards that any justice system should demand.

Today I am joined by Susanne Flølo and Christopher E. Kelly. Both are active in the International Investigative Interviewing Research Group, iIIRG. They work to move evidence-based interviewing from research into day-to-day practice — where supervision, habits and culture decide what sticks.

Susanne, you work in human rights and investigative interviewing standards. You have contributed to the UN Manual for Investigative Interviewing and the UNODC e-learning programme for investigative interviewing. Chris, you are a professor focusing on criminal justice, with a particular focus on what actually improves information quality in interviews.

Susanne and Chris, thanks for joining us today. For listeners who have not come across iIIRG before — if you had to explain to a busy investigator in one sentence what iIIRG exists to change, and just as importantly, what iIIRG is deliberately not trying to be?

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

I can start with this. In one sentence, iIIRG was created to fill the space that exists between academic research and real-world practice. The explicit mission is to bring these two groups together — groups that have historically not always understood one another. When iIIRG was founded, in 2007 or 2008, it was with the explicit intention of bridging that gap between research and practice.  01:47

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

And I agree. First of all, thank you so much for having me — it is a great pleasure. I have listened to every episode of this podcast, so it is a real honour to have been invited. For me, the mission and purpose of iIIRG is very simple: we connect science to practice. We try to make sure that people who conduct interviews — whether they are police, military, immigration, or oversight bodies — actually have access to what works. And we try to help our members, whether practitioners, researchers, or other professionals, to uphold the highest possible professional standard in their work.  02:20

Børge Hansen (Host)

So what is your personal litmus test for an investigator who is operationally ready? One or two indicators.  03:05

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

A lot of people, I think, still treat interviewing as an art or an instinct. But to me, the litmus test of a good investigator is not the confession — however much Hollywood might lead us to believe otherwise. Rather, it is whether you are able to create the conditions for accurate, complete and reliable information to emerge. Interviewing is a disciplined forensic craft. It has methodology and structure, it is based on science, and it has profound consequences for justice, public trust, and even state stability.  03:10

In every country we work in — whether Ukraine, Thailand, Brazil, Indonesia, or others — we meet investigators who intuitively understand the value of rapport-based interviewing long before they have even heard the term ‘investigative interviewing’. And many of them have discovered the hard way that confrontational, confession-driven methods simply do not get them the information they need. So, again, we are simply trying to bridge the gap between research and practice.

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

And I would add: in terms of a litmus test, one of the most important qualities I have found is a level of curiosity — not just about an investigation, but about the world. An openness to different possibilities and a willingness to think beyond what is immediately in front of you. The best interviewers I have encountered over the years have been the ones who can think outside the box.  04:13

That is related to something Susanne just said about art versus science. You hear it a lot from practitioners: this is more art than science. As a committed scientist, I have to object to that. I have come to believe that nobody particularly wants to be thought of as a scientist — white lab coat, elbow patches. That is not very fun. Artists and creative thinkers are fun, imaginative, able to break out of everyday norms. But I do believe there is a science to that kind of thinking, and we can teach it.

Børge Hansen (Host)

Frameworks like PEACE, KREATIV, and ORBIT are well known. But if you strip things down for investigators working under pressure, what is the smallest set of behaviours that protect reliability?  05:31

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

In addition to keeping an open mind and remaining flexible, I think the couple of essential qualities that all the models boil down to are: stay nice, ask good questions, and listen. Actually hear what people are saying, and allow them to speak. Because the opposite — being confrontational, asking closed questions, interrupting, doing more talking than the interviewee — that is not actually an interview. All the models come down to a rapport-building mentality that asks good questions and then lets the person speak.  05:56

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

Paired with curiosity and good analytic skills. But yes, I absolutely agree with Chris.  06:47

Børge Hansen (Host)

Good. So let us move to where the pressure really begins. Rules and frameworks are easy when things are quiet. But officers are on the clock and expected to produce results. When that pressure hits, you find out what the system really values. Why is confession-driven culture still so strong among investigators across the world?  06:48

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

Confession culture is, as you say, incredibly persistent. It is fast — or at least it is portrayed as fast. It is traditional. It is what supervisors often expect, and it is emotionally compelling. People feel as though they have cracked the case when someone admits guilt. The problem is that it is a terrible accuracy indicator.  07:39

Confession-driven practices increase the risk of tunnel vision. They reinforce cognitive biases, and we know they lead to errors of justice and wrongful convictions. They also fundamentally clash with the presumption of innocence and the real purpose of the interview, which is to gather information — not to extract agreement. Another reason confession culture persists is systemic. Many police organisations cite lack of funding, time, or leadership focus. Those explanations tend to be the same everywhere. But underneath them, I think there is something far more basic: you cannot fix a problem you have not acknowledged exists. No country is immune to errors of justice, but you will not see them unless you are willing to believe they can actually happen in your system.

Human fallibilities also play a huge role — misunderstandings about suggestibility, confirmation bias, primacy effects, false memories. Acknowledging these fallibilities helps explain why interviews need to be conducted in a structured, research-based way that actively mitigates these risks.

Børge Hansen (Host)

Chris, if the science backs what Susanne is describing, why is there still resistance?  09:12

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

Because none of us like change — and I will not just throw the police under the bus here. University professors are the same. Going from a confession orientation to one of information gathering is a fairly large shift in both mindset and practice.  09:28

Speaking as an American: in my city of Philadelphia, a city of around one and a half million people, there were 250 murders in 2025 — down from 500 during the pandemic. The police are dealing with a significant backlog of cases. And in the American legal context, confession is king. When you get a confession, it is over. The detective can move on to the next case and hand it to the prosecutor, who knows that, barring some unusual issue, 97% of convictions in this country — a number similar globally — come through guilty pleas. When a defendant sees a confession in the file, that is a very powerful piece of evidence pushing them towards a guilty plea. So confessions are good for the police, and good for the prosecution, because they keep things moving.

Børge Hansen (Host)

Concrete results.  11:35

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

Exactly. It is outcome-based and short-term thinking. Here is a crime; I will solve it. And regardless of the veracity of the confession, it is treated as truth — because there is still a widespread misunderstanding of why people say they did things they actually did not do. The entire system is incentivised to get a confession. And accusatorial-style interrogations are very effective at producing them. So effective, in fact, that they get innocent people to confess. That is obviously where the problem lies. The incentive structure has to change. Prosecutors and investigators need to scrutinise confessions more closely and verify everything in them. But until police leaders, prosecutors, and lawmakers understand that a confession can be unreliable — and that even a genuine confession from a guilty person may not be the end of the information-gathering process — the culture will not shift.  11:37

Børge Hansen (Host)

Susanne, when standards come under strain — even in countries where investigative interviewing is the established standard — what is the first safeguard that slips in real life?  13:13

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

Empathy and rapport. We forget about their importance the moment pressure rises, and so the opening — and the planning that precedes it — becomes absolutely crucial. Everything that follows rests on what happens there. The opening determines rapport, determines cooperation, and determines whether the interviewer manages to stay open-minded. If you get that opening wrong, if you set a confrontational tone, you will probably never recover.  13:41

We also see the same linguistic red flags everywhere in the world: leading questions; repeating a question until the person changes their answer or rapport breaks down entirely; narrative summaries that omit or distort key details; language that signals the interviewer has already decided what happened. These issues are universal, and they matter — because interviewing is not just about what the interviewer hears, it is about what the interviewer elicits. Small language choices can fundamentally shape the quality and reliability of the information obtained.

That is why we insist on structure, planning, and an evidence-driven approach paired with audio and video recording. Because, as my colleague Dr. Ivar Fahsing likes to say: when the stakes are high, you do not rise to the occasion — you sink to your level of training. Which is why having a solid methodology in place is so incredibly important. And that goes not only for the police, but for the entire justice system.

Børge Hansen (Host)

Chris, where do you see the consequences of a confession-driven or ‘get answers fast’ culture playing out?  15:31

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

In a confession culture, there are very few safeguards further down the line. The incentives for prosecutors are to keep cases moving, secure guilty pleas, and get on to the next file. Judges and juries — in the rare instance a case reaches that point — often lack any real understanding of good interviewing practices or what constitutes reliable information. And my big concern relates to recording.  15:44

Everyone who talks about reform immediately recommends recording — and rightly so. But I like to push back a little, not because I disagree that recordings should be made, but because recording alone is not enough. It needs to come with independent evaluation. If you put a false confession in front of a jury — with multiple camera angles, crystal-clear audio — that recording looks compelling. Without someone contextualising and analysing what was actually said and how, all you have is everyone’s biases looking at a technically excellent recording of a false confession.

I live in Pennsylvania, where confession expert witnesses are actually prohibited from testifying in court. There is a push here to record all interviews — but without that expert context, it could actually be worse than having a detective read a confession statement into the record. At least then a defence attorney can cross-examine the detective and find weaknesses. A recording is very hard to cross-examine. So the safeguards have to run all the way through the system — educating not just lay jurors, but prosecutors and judges as well.

Børge Hansen (Host)

You said that under pressure we sink to our level of training. If you rush the opening, what happens to the quality of everything that follows?  18:25

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

You risk failing to build rapport, which means you are far less likely to obtain accurate and complete information than if you had laid a good foundation from the outset. And if you start on the wrong foot, it is extremely difficult to recover. In those cases where rapport breaks down from the very beginning, it is time to bring in a different interviewer and try again — but that is not the ideal outcome. The best approach is to get it right once, do it well, and ensure proper planning for that opening.  18:45

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

And I would add: the first thing to go under high pressure is patience. It is related to planning and taking the time for an appropriate introduction — building a working relationship, not a friendship, but an understanding between two people on opposite sides of an issue about what each other needs. When patience goes, the other person’s needs go with it. And as Susanne says, once rapport is not there from the start, it is very hard to establish at all.  19:57

Børge Hansen (Host)

I have attended ORBIT training myself. It uses live actors with full backstories and cases running over several days — genuinely immersive. One thing that struck me watching was how even trained officers struggled with two very different challenging interviewees: one deeply traumatised and withdrawn; the other traumatised but dominant and acting out. How does the science actually find its way into practice in situations like those? These are police officers, not trained psychologists.  20:57

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

The science is still evolving on this. For the kinds of interviewees you describe — someone experiencing acute trauma during an interview, or someone who carries more general trauma — there is some research, but it is not nearly as mature as other areas. And I understand why practitioners find that frustrating.  22:06

My response is always: we do not have all the answers yet. What we can do is base practice on the best available research at any given time. ORBIT is a good example — it has evolved since its inception and will continue to do so, because the team behind it is always working to understand the model better and update it. In two, five, or ten years, all of these models should look quite different.

And sometimes — and this is a genuinely unsatisfying answer for practitioners — sometimes you are simply not going to have a successful interview. In many ways, ending an interview without the outcome you wanted is preferable to reverting to coercive or aggressive tactics, which is what can happen when someone is frustrated and not getting what they need. It may be better to pause, regroup, and try again with a different interviewer. But that takes resources, patience, and leadership. Every investigator has supervisors who should be providing oversight and ensuring principles are being upheld. That breaks down too often. But to reiterate: the science is evolving, and models like ORBIT are continuously bringing new findings into practice — which is exactly what the scientific process should look like.

Børge Hansen (Host)

Susanne, you travel the world observing people being trained. Are people getting impatient, reverting to old tactics — or are they able, as Chris described, to accept a difficult interview rather than conduct the wrong type of interview?  25:59

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

It depends. But what we most commonly see is that people go into the interview room without a clear plan — for rapport building, for the opening, for how to handle the evidence. It is a stressful situation. Even in training settings, people become incredibly stressed because they are being observed by colleagues, peers, and sometimes superiors.  26:16

And we also need to build a genuine feedback culture. What we typically hear from supervisors after an interview is: ‘That went great. No notes.’ But we know that no interview is ever perfect or without areas for improvement. People need to hear — and be comfortable receiving — feedback like: ‘You were about to lose rapport here because you were pushing too hard’ or ‘We haven’t properly explored that line yet.’ And not just feedback focused on the information obtained, but on the process itself: what did I do, what did I miss, how could I improve? That culture of constructive, process-focused reflection is often absent.

Lawrence and Emily Alison’s work through ORBIT is incredibly valuable in this regard, because building rapport is genuinely difficult to teach. And of course, as Chris mentioned, it is also true that no matter how much training someone receives, some people will never be strong interviewers. That is an unfortunate reality. But we know that certain personal qualities — curiosity, patience, flexibility, and the ability to genuinely express empathy — are fundamental. Becky Milne has called it the X factor: who has it and who does not.

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

Can I offer a quick anecdote on training design? I was part of a team developing and piloting a training programme — I will not mention the agency or any names. We put into the role-play scenario an interviewee who was not traumatised, not belligerent, not resistant. Our role player was overly cooperative. Everything they said was false, but they were enthusiastic, open, and willing. Come in, I am happy to talk, anything you need.  28:58

Over two deliveries of this training, with perhaps six or eight teams rotating through, very few of them knew how to handle it. These were experienced investigators, some of whom had been through science-based training, and they did not know what to do with someone being apparently cooperative. Several reverted to unproductive practices out of frustration and unmet expectations. It was a brilliant demonstration of confirmation bias — they expected resistance, and when it was not there, they were lost. I would encourage anyone designing role-play exercises to include that kind of interviewee.

Børge Hansen (Host)

Not putting up a fight, but being overly cooperative.  31:02

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

I believe that is what the Alisons would refer to as a ‘bad monkey’ in the ORBIT model.  31:06

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

Yes, exactly.  31:10

Børge Hansen (Host)

Another blind spot: what leaders can actually see and manage. We talk a lot about the interviewer, but much less about leadership. If a supervisor only reads a written summary, what do they miss — and what gets lost when they do not see the interaction itself?  31:11

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

What you are pointing at, Børge, is one of the biggest global challenges: the accountability deficit. Leadership rarely sees the interview itself — they see the summary. And summaries hide a great deal: tone, pressure, leading language, body language, missed opportunities, and in some cases even coercion. Summaries also tend to overstate certainty, presenting a clean narrative where the actual interview may have been very messy. And the courts often also see only the summary. The entire justice system is making high-stakes decisions without ever seeing what actually happened in that interview room.  31:46

This is why improving interviewing is never just about training frontline officers. At NCHR, we have seen repeatedly that unless you also train supervisors, managers and leadership, and unless you build systems around them, reforms do not stick. You get a good training workshop, people are enthusiastic for a few months, and then the system pulls everyone back into old habits — because the supervision, the metrics, and the accountability structures have not changed.

And this brings in something that is often overlooked: evaluation. How can you evaluate the quality of an interview if you cannot revisit it in its most complete form? How do you learn from it? How do you train others from it? Without recordings, all of this becomes extremely difficult. When senior leaders champion transparency, recording and professionalisation, everything changes. When they do not, nothing changes. You simply cannot build a culture of high-quality interviewing without leadership creating the conditions for accountability, learning and long-term reform.

Børge Hansen (Host)

If you had to choose — what makes the science stick? Better training upfront, or day-to-day supervision?  33:56

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

It is both. But it also requires a fundamental understanding of the why. Why are we doing this? Why does it need to be done this way? If you believe your system is perfect, you will not change it. You need to be critical of your own structures and actively look for errors — because you will not find them unless you believe they can exist.  34:03

Børge Hansen (Host)

Chris, are there simple metrics that leaders could use?  34:39

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

The leaders I have encountered who embrace this movement are the ones who think of their organisations as learning organisations — not static, not ‘good enough’, but searching for something better. And in investigative interviewing, we have the tools for that. But one leader does not make a social movement.  34:47

For every forward-thinking leader with the power to implement reform, there are probably several more who are resistant — because they moved up through a system without that kind of reform and succeeded within it. Why would they want to change something that worked for them?

Change therefore has to be both top-down and bottom-up. People doing the interviewing are not going to reform themselves. There has to be some directive from the top: we are going to do it this way. But it has to be reinforced, because leaders rotate, promote, retire. Someone new comes in and you may have to start again.

What this means in practice is that we also have to reach people who are new in their careers — get them to see the value of science-based interviewing before they pick up bad habits. As they promote up, they become the supervisors giving constructive feedback. But that takes 20 years. I will always credit former LAPD detective Mark Severino, who had some success in his agency getting investigative interviewing training to brand new recruits — not waiting until someone reaches investigations rank, but starting at the patrol level, where officers are already conducting interviews and speaking to people every day.

Børge Hansen (Host)

When poor practices do show up, what does a healthy organisation’s response look like?  39:00

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

I have learned a great deal from a dear friend and colleague, Mike McCleary, formerly Assistant Sheriff in charge of investigations at the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department — a very senior position. The lesson I have internalised most from working with him is this: you cannot tell police — or academics, for that matter — what they did wrong without also telling them how to do better.  39:06

Whether it is a one-to-one debrief on a specific interview or a five-day training course, going in to tell a police officer who takes pride in their work that what they have been doing is bad or wrong is going to make them shut down. The approach has to be: we can do better, and here is how. It is not about what not to do — you cannot change the past. It is about improving in the future. Try this next time. Think about how an interviewee might respond when you get frustrated or impatient, and what effect that has on rapport and on the information you will obtain going forward.

Børge Hansen (Host)

Let us talk about recording — not as technology, but on the trust side. What makes a recording credible? And what can quietly undermine it?  41:01

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

People tend to think of recording as a technical add-on or a luxury, but in our view it is neither. It is the engine that drives professionalism — and it can actually accelerate reform. Norway is a clear example. When video recording became mandatory, many officers were initially hesitant because they did not feel fully confident in their skills. But that transparency pushed the whole system to invest in training, structure and preparation. Recording did not follow the reform. It was instrumental to the reform. It was the catalyst that moved interviewing from a private, unobservable practice to a shared professional discipline that everyone could learn from.  41:25

Recording interviews improves accountability almost immediately. It strengthens evidence, promotes fairness, and protects the interviewee, the information obtained, and the interviewer themselves. Even a poor interview: the full recording is protection. It also creates a feedback loop for training — you can revisit your own interviews, or see how colleagues approach difficult moments. When you can do that, the quality of practice rises quickly. It becomes a craft, not improvisation. If a justice system tells us it has limited resources, we typically point them towards recording as an obvious starting point.

Børge Hansen (Host)

Is hesitancy around recording still a barrier? People record themselves constantly on their phones these days.  42:56

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

Unfortunately, recording interviews is a different matter entirely. The evidential integrity problem is real — a snippet recorded on a personal mobile phone gives no assurance of completeness. Was it started just as the suspect decided to confess? We cannot know. You need proper systems in place. The evidential record has to be preserved and protected, and that requires institutional infrastructure, not personal devices.  43:17

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

I would add that recording is also good for research. The unit I have worked most closely with over the past decade is a gang investigations unit based within the Clark County Detention Center in Las Vegas. They had been recording their interviews long before they encountered any science-based training. We took a random sample of 50 recordings, analysed them, and fed the findings back into their practice. That process built trust, because they realised we were not there to harm them — we were there to help.  43:54

One example: they kept interrupting their interviewees. The question would be asked, the interviewee would start speaking, and the investigator would talk over them. If they took one message from our feedback, it was simply: let them talk. We then continued working with them over subsequent years, including pre-post evaluation studies. Their practice improved demonstrably over time, the more they were exposed to this approach. Recording provides the data that makes that kind of outside analysis possible.

Børge Hansen (Host)

You mentioned earlier that a technically brilliant recording can actually camouflage a bad interview or a forced confession.  47:22

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

Yes. And that is a real limitation in the type of research I do. When a partner agency gives me recordings or transcripts, I generally cannot verify whether the police account is accurate or whether the interviewee’s account is truthful — I have to work with what I am given and acknowledge that limitation. It gets contextualised and triangulated with other research methodologies: surveys, research interviews, focus groups, experimental laboratory studies. When you take the totality of findings across all these methods, you can have reasonable confidence in the reliability of what you are seeing. But no single recording tells the whole story.  47:32

Børge Hansen (Host)

It is 2026, so we should talk about AI. Earlier in this series we spoke with representatives from the Norwegian police who are working on the FAIR project — AI for interviews. What are your thoughts about AI assistance during interviews?  48:48

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

I am not sure iIIRG has taken a formal organisational stance yet, but promoting the responsible use of technology is a clear priority for us. Personally, I am hearing a great many stories about officers already using the tools that are publicly available — and I think we are running a huge risk if we do not get the police properly engaged with AI development. The risk is that people will use these tools regardless, and sensitive information will end up in open language models where it does not belong. Ignoring it is not a solution. And we know that criminals are already using AI tools to improve their methods.  49:07

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

As an organisation, iIIRG is committed to the responsible use of technology, and AI is clearly the most significant development right now. But we genuinely do not know its full effects yet. As a researcher, I feel I need to advocate for more study of this. And as an individual sceptic — the history of policing has been a history of finding shortcuts to conclusions. We need to be very careful that AI is not seen as just another shortcut that undermines good practice.  50:57

The polygraph comes to mind. It is a shortcut, and it has been used as one. If AI is framed in the same way — another tool for getting to a result faster — I do not think it will be effective. I am also cautious about large language models, because they learn the incentives that humans operate with. An LLM that ‘knows’ a confession leads to a conviction may well push in that direction. That is a very dangerous territory. We need much more research before we go all in.

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

It also comes to mind what happened when a major AI company released the second version of their LLM — which actually performed worse than the first, precisely because of how people had been using it. These systems are not neutral.  53:32

Børge Hansen (Host)

What I am hearing is that the goal is not more technology per se — it is a record the court can trust, and a process people can rely on. If you want that to stick globally, what actually drives lasting change? Are we seeing a real shift, or are we still circling the same conversation?  53:45

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

I definitely think we are seeing a global shift. It is not isolated successes — there is broad momentum for investigative interviewing. At iIIRG, we have seen a significant increase in our work, and the same is true at NCHR and the Norwegian Mendez Centre. Interest is growing everywhere: Europe, Latin America, Africa, Southeast Asia. More governments, training centres, and oversight bodies are reaching out because they want to move away from confession-driven models towards something genuinely professional, ethical, and effective.  54:13

At the international level, there have been some very significant developments. The Mendez Principles gave us, for the first time, a clear human rights framework for interviewing and information gathering — now available in 23 languages. The UN Manual on Investigative Interviewing anchors that science into practical guidance for states and individual officers, and is available in English, French, Arabic, Ukrainian, and very soon Spanish and Thai, all translated by local implementation groups. And the UNODC e-learning course on investigative interviewing allows us to scale training rapidly and at very low cost — reaching practitioners who would never otherwise have access to this material, often in their local language.

Together, these tools have professionalized the conversation. States can now say, ‘Yes, we want this,’ because implementation is understandable, operationalised, and supported by global standards. Investigative interviewing has moved from a niche reform to a global professional standard. And perhaps most encouragingly, we are seeing the Global South taking the lead in many of these efforts — Brazil, Thailand, Indonesia, and many others are innovating, contextualising and driving implementation forward. And I want to highlight the extraordinary work being done in Ukraine — implementing investigative interviewing at full scale even during the full-scale invasion.

Børge Hansen (Host)

Ukraine is clearly an extreme high-pressure environment. What was the trigger for moving down the investigative interviewing route there, and what has stopped it from sliding back?  57:19

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

Part of the motivation, since the full-scale invasion, has been a will to distance themselves from the opposing side in that conflict. But I also think there is a genuine commitment to improving the quality of information — and a recognition that investigators are now sitting on thousands of cases, each of enormous consequence, that will matter for generations after the war. The stakes could not be higher. They want to ensure that they do justice to the victims and their families.  57:51

What has also been remarkable is that they have not just built political will — they have built a training infrastructure around it and achieved real consistency in training delivery, which is genuinely difficult in any large institution, particularly where leadership and mid-level management rotate. I think Ukraine probably warrants its own episode, and I would love to have Ukrainian colleagues explain it themselves.

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

Absolutely.  59:10

Børge Hansen (Host)

Not everywhere is change driven by legislation. Some places, it is driven by individuals with conviction. So if there is a chief of police listening right now — what is the one move they can make on Monday morning, no budget, that starts moving practice in the right direction?  59:48

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

I think they should visit iIIRG.org, sign up for the newsletter, become a member, look into attending one of our iIIRG In Conversation webinars, and consider our in-person conferences — the next of which is in July 2026. In all seriousness, beyond that pitch, getting plugged into the world community is the first step. iIIRG is one piece of this, but not the only one. There are organisations like iIIRG and Implementa that have information freely available. The Mendez Principles website. Scientific journals — and there are ways around the paywalls. The information is out there. They just have to reach out. And once they do, we see this all the time: someone signs up for the newsletter, attends a webinar, and that sparks something. We cannot do everything, but we can provide the entry point.  1:00:08

Børge Hansen (Host)

And if they do that — what should they expect to see improve in weeks or months, not years?  1:01:53

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

A mindset change. It is a necessary first step — not sufficient on its own, but necessary. A leader who develops a sense that there is a better way, who finds iIIRG or another science-based organisation and starts learning that a different approach exists — that awareness is the first step. And once they realise there is a worldwide network of people willing to help, the ball starts rolling quite quickly. Then comes Implementa, which is specifically designed to help organisations make change from within. The educational awareness piece is where everyone has to start.  1:02:07

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

I absolutely agree with Chris. And I would add that we can also connect them with people. In whatever country that imaginary commissioner is sitting, we almost certainly have contacts who are working on investigative interviewing there. We would be very happy to connect anyone — whether out of curiosity or with the ambition of a full police reform — with the research community in their country. We are open to everybody.  1:03:35

Børge Hansen (Host)

The playbook is not mysterious: pick your driver, embed it in supervision, and make quality visible. iIIRG is here to help. Effective interviewing is not just a people skill — it is a forensic discipline that protects the heart of the justice system. If we do not get the room right, the record cannot rescue it. Susanne, Chris — thank you for joining Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, and for helping move reliable practice to scale.  1:04:28

Christopher E. Kelly (Guest)

Thank you, Børge.  1:04:59

Susanne Flølo (Guest)

Thank you so much for having us.  1:05:00

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