Episode 05.
“Changing mindsets is a big ship to turn”.
Prof. Becky Milne in conversation with Børge Hansen

Transcript

Børge Hansen 

Good morning, Becky. And good morning, everyone. I’m in Luton in the Davidhorn office in Luton. And today I’m here with Becky Milne, Professor of Forensic Psychology from the University of Portsmouth. Becky, you want to give a brief introduction about yourself?  

Becky Milne 

Yeah. Thank you very much for inviting me for this wonderful podcast talking about how we’ve evolved over time from sort of interrogation to investigative interviewing. So I’ve been working in this arena for over 30 years. I know I can’t believe time flies.  

Børge Hansen 

It does fly for over 30 years.  

Becky Milne 

So I started out, you know, actually I do inspirational talks for students school children who were doing their sort of higher exams because I wanted to be an optician. Okay. I know I wanted to be an optician and I’m lucky I didn’t get my grades. This is what I say. We are lucky. That’s what I say to people please don’t stress you know and in the days where I was applying for university to be an optician you either went to university or you went in the polytechnic. That was almost like your backup plan and my backup plan was psychology because it was this new sort of science it wasn’t everywhere like it is now and so luckily I didn’t get my grades and I ended up going to Portsmouth. And the reason I went to Portsmouth is because I wanted to do a year out and I worked as an aid worker over in Ethiopia working it was in the famine at the time in the 1980s.  

So I had my 19th birthday over in Addis. And I just wanted to give something to the world before I went on my own ventures of academia. And Portsmouth, Polly, were the only people who said, send us a postcard. Everyone else said, no, you’ll have to reapply, but Portsmouth said, send us a postcard. So, you know, I am all about fate in life. I’m serendipity. I mean, I enjoyed my time in Addis. learnt a lot. I grew up, learnt about famine, about war, and you’ll see how that comes back later.  

Børge Hansen 

So the story starts in Addis Ababa, basically you sent off with some values in baggage.  

Becky Milne 

Yeah, working with various charities to try and get money really for people who were dying. 

So I wasn’t sort of out in the country. I was in the capital city.  

Børge Hansen 

Yeah, coming out of UK into all this Adis Abbaba it’s a remote location, different world.  

Becky Milne 

Yeah. Different world. what happened there that, you know, that you on the, this path on forensic psychology there. Well, interestingly also, so I experienced that. I experienced famine, death. Saw my first dead body sort of 18 going on 19. But prior to that, someone else had asked me this recently, and I wrote a blog about this, that my parents, unfortunately, as you know, passed away, both of them now within the last sort of four or five years. And my mum was a woman’s activist. So she was all about women’s rights. We traveled a lot as a family. And one of my trips was to New York. 

And people always go to New York. They go to the typical tourist traps. You know, they go to the Empire State Building, et cetera. My parents took me to the UN building. And when people say they’re taking their children to New York, I said, is the UN building on your list? Because it should be. Because yes, all the other tourist traps that everyone does were exciting and wonderful. But the thing at the age of about 14 that really hit me was the UN.  

Yeah, with that wonderful sculpture outside of the gun, which was all twisted. With just the ideology of the UN. And that really hit me hard as a sort of a teenager, thinking, this is amazing that, I had to use my passport. I remember I had to, because it was a different country, but I’m in US. 

And all these things and what it stood for, what the UN stood for really hit my heart. So I took my son as well at the age of 14, because you have to book your place. You get taken around by someone who works with the United Nations and they explain about social justice. They say about all the values of the United Nations. And that carved my path that I wanted to do something for society. I wanted to do good and I wanted to help.  

Børge Hansen 

And this was way before we had the, you know, 17 sustainability goals. So now it’s more easy to access this for everyone. And it’s been a part of the agenda for many organizations and government around the world. The UN manual for criminal investigations is being launched today. 

Becky Milne 

I know. And that is almost like a full circle. the new rapporteur, Alice, invited me to do some of the opening remarks about three or four weeks ago regarding how we can sort of cope with females primarily who have been violated as part of war conflict. 

And it’s almost like my circle has come round from being inspired by the UN and my mum, women’s activist, to suddenly doing a lot more work that I’m doing with the UN on war crimes, et cetera. And I feel very blessed that, in fact, my passion, my passion is getting, everyone a voice, whoever they are, to give them a voice, to let them be heard, is really coming to fruition. 

So it’s, yeah, that was my motivation was going to the UN building.  

Børge Hansen 

Oh, it’s good start. So tell me, so there’s a leap from visiting the UN building to, you know, in 1999, you and Ray Bull wrote one of the first, maybe the first book on Investigative Interviewing and coincidentally, the manual is released today, and it talks a lot about the Investigative Interviewing. What led you to come together and what inspired you guys to write this book and talk about that a little bit.  

Becky Milne 

I feel very, very, I keep saying this, but I do feel very privileged, the people I’ve worked with over the years. So didn’t get my grades. So I ended up going to Portsmouth Polytechnic and Ray Bull came as head of department in my year two. 

And he was a breath of fresh air. He was very different to a normal academic was Ray. We both come from sort of quite working class backgrounds. Both of us are first in our families to do a degree. And I started working on my dissertation. 

As you know, I call him dad number two, you know, and he is like my dad number two. I did my undergrad dissertation with him on facial disfigurement and people’s perceptions of children with facial disfigurement. So very different to obviously forensic interviewing. And then he had a PhD place and I was very lucky, right place, right time. 

What he said to me, I was, you know, relatively bright. You know, I wasn’t getting first but he picked me because he knew I’d be able to talk to cops and I’d be able to interact with practitioners.  

Børge Hansen 

Already here, you can see that the, you know, interacting with other humans is a key.  

Becky Milne 

Yeah, for me, it always has been. So, and justice for everyone regardless. So, yeah, so I started my PhD with Ray and we started looking at, he had just written the first ever guidance in the world for interviewing vulnerable groups called the Memorandum of Good Practice. And everything that was written was based on some form of research base. Now we all call it evidence-based policing, but that didn’t exist then.  

We always, as psychologists, everything we advise at a local or a national or an international level has to be based on research. That’s exactly what that manual being launched today represents. 

But Ray drilled that into me back in 1992. That’s when I started my PhD with Ray. And he’d just written this national guidance. And there was very limited research to base any guidance on and how to interview vulnerable groups, uber vulnerable children with learning disabilities and adults with learning disability. And so that was my focus of my research for five years. But within the first year, I said, I need to find out what police do.  

If I’m gonna be researching the police for the next three years full time, then I need to find out what they did. So the local police, and back in 92, it was quite closed. It wasn’t now quite an open organisation, the police in the UK, but in the early 90s, it was quite a closed organisation. And the local police, called Dorset Police, opened their arms and said, yeah, come and view, just come and observe what we do with child protection cases.  

And I learnt a lot. And then also I was very lucky. I went over to LA to work with Ed Geiselman in the lab with Ed, because I was going to research this thing called the cognitive interview. And in those days to be able to research it, you had to be trained by the person who created it. So I worked with Ed in his lab and I was like a kid in a sweet shop and I met the local police officer, someone called Rick Tab who asked Ed and Ron, how can we interview people properly?  

And that taught me really early, back in 92, it really taught me that it has to be a collaboration. So I met with Rick to find out why he’d approached his local university to try and come up with some interviewing models help when he interviews witnesses and victims on major crime. Cause he said there was stuff left in the head, but he didn’t know how to access it without tramping on the snow, contaminating the snow.  

So I learned very early from the police themselves, Dorset police, and then working with Ed and meeting the LAPD that this has to be a collaboration. It can’t be just one sided. It’s a real-world problem.  

Børge Hansen 

Yeah. How was it back then? You know, because you said that there was no real science back then. Now we know that, you know, science back research is good for building methods. You know, some of the stories we get is that back then you need to be either you were a people person or you weren’t. Yeah. So if you didn’t manage to connect well with people intuitively, and then how was the, you know, perception of building science to this? And also, well, it’s just understanding how science can help.  

Becky Milne 

I think as an academic, I like to call myself an acca-pracca, an academic – practitioner, because as you know, I work on many a case. 

As an academic at that time, I didn’t know much about the practitioner world in the early days. And that’s why I invite all academics to learn that practitioner roles, they can become more of an acca-pracca to, you know, I see a lot of research, which to be honest would never work in the field. So it’s obviously they haven’t had any dialogue with what the real world problems are. And so that’s why I immersed myself. I, you know, I just stayed in someone’s house, you know, and she was in child protection, her husband was in CID. And I just made tea, coffee, did filing cabinets just to find out what the real-world problems were and how psychology can help their world. And there was a case with vulnerable adults that Ray Bull was asked to advise on. A large number of adults had been allegedly at that time abused physically, emotionally, sexually within a care home situation. And the force, Thames Valley police asked Ray to give advice. And that was my first time working actually on a case, but obviously just helping Ray. And I learned how difficult the job is. So yes, we can be critical. I am a critical friend. That’s what the police call me. 

However, I learned what a difficult job it was in my first year of my PhD. And the police on the whole are desperate for help in certain difficult cases. I was very lucky that I, you know, I have been most of the time, not always, but most of the time embraced across the globe asking for my help and Ray’s help, you know, and that’s all we can be is help. We can’t give them the magic wand, but we can be there to help and give advice. So I learnt a lot about my God, how difficult it is to get accurate or reliable information from a vulnerable person to make an informed decision. And that’s basically my world. My world is I work with decision makers, be they judges, prosecutors, be they police officers who make a decision. And we know decisions are only as good, and people have heard me say this so many times, information is only as good as the questions. Poor questions results in poor information, results in poor ill-informed, worst case scenario miscarriages or justice decisions. And it’s as simple as that really. And that’s what’s working on that case and that getting that inaccurate information is hard.  

So I learned very early that collaboration is needed. We need to find the gap. We need to understand the difficulty in the workplace. We need to then look at how we as psychologists, and obviously now other disciplines, but me as a psychologist can try and help fill that gap and help the people and be critical, of course, because part of the way is you have to be critical, but in a way that doesn’t put up barriers, you always come up with solutions if possible.  

Børge Hansen 

So you guys in 1999, you put all these learnings into a book.  

Becky Milne 

Yeah. Well, in 92, that’s when I started my PhD and 92 is the real year. Everything happened in the UK in 92. Peace was born in 92. I started my PhD in 92. Ray wrote the National Guide with someone called Di Burch, a lawyer, of how to interview vulnerable groups in 92. So everything stemmed from that year 92. And I was very lucky. was on the fringes, because I was learning of that world. All these people were working together, And I got my PhD in 97. And then I was asked to write, so I got my doctorate in 97. But interesting, in 95, that’s why it took me a bit longer, I was asked to be a lecturer in the Institute of Police and Criminological Studies, it was called then, we’ve now gone through two name changes. And it was the first ever police degree in the world. So this also was important. So I have always immersed myself in working with the practitioners. So then as my first ever academic job, it wasn’t the straight from school type of student, it was police officers and police officers who I love working with, were also very challenging to me going, well, we’re paying for this degree or someone is paying for this degree and time. Why are we learning all this? So they made me as a psychologist go, why am I teaching them stress management? Why am I teaching? So it made me have to really conform all my knowledge to their world, not just interviewing, everything. And I led that degree for over eight years and we had people from all over the world. Initially it was just Metropolitan Police, then it went national, then it went international. And so my academic sort of admin role, my teaching role, my PhD has always immersed me of dealing straight with a practitioner. Luckily, I’d say, because I’ve had to learn to go, yeah, what’s the point? Why are we doing this? You know, everyone always says that. Becky always says, what’s the point? Conferences and that what’s the point?  

Børge Hansen 

You’re that annoying person asking those hard questions.  

Becky Milne 

Well, I just say what, how are going to, how are we going to realize this in the real world? How is this workable?  

Børge Hansen 

Yeah, I love it because it is key because it’s sometimes, you know, academic, academia can work with topics that might, you know, hard to relate to practical situations. our, you know, police officers are practical people. They have practical problems to solve. 

Becky Milne 

And now luckily, we have this impact agenda in our research exercise. So suddenly I became the annoying person of going, she’s very applied. Yeah. And I work my research is in what we call the sort of very messy data world, which is difficult to publish because you can’t control everything to suddenly being flavor of the month, to be honest, because suddenly, my God, Becky actually does work in the real world and says that really difficult question. I’ve always said it. What’s the point. And, know, we now call it sort of impact is that the buzzword, what’s the impact? What’s the impact? And that’s what lied the book. 

And that book helped me broaden my horizons from vulnerable victims and witnesses to more suspects. I wrote a chapter on conversation management. It was an authored book. 

Børge Hansen 

Just recently, somebody recommended this book. Now, 25 years later. So why do you think that’s the case, that it’s still relevant? And also what do you see has changed in the world? I mean, 25 years, you know, sciences evolved, the practitioners evolved. What do you see changing in the world now?  

Becky Milne 

I know, with 25 years is a long time, huh? And things have changed and some things haven’t, which isn’t great either. 

You know, I sometimes think, I’ve been dedicating 30 years of my life to this. You know, why? So what has stayed the same is a lot of the models have stayed the same, but they just have developed. And the reason why I think people still recommend it, because Ray and I, at the outset, back to that collaboration, wanted it not to be this really high brow academic book. We wanted something that practitioners can pick up and use. And that was really important for us. But my PhD students, majority of them have been practitioners. They learn a little bit from me and I learn a lot from them. And they have also helped me understand their world with their own research. And that’s been very important. So at the time I had Colin Clark, who was my first PhD baby. I had Andy Griffiths and they obviously were practitioners. 

And so I learned a lot from them. And so they also looked, you know, taught me how to try and put what we needed across so practitioners could pick it up. And that’s what was really important. And Tom Williamson, as you know, who led the whole initiative of investigative interviewing in the UK, he organized a conference in Paris. And every European country were asked to talk about what their interviewing stance was. It was many moons ago. And the only country that took academics was the UK and that was Ray and I. And it was quite embarrassing in a way because most countries just said, we’ve got this book and it was our book. And that wasn’t because it was so brilliant. It was because there was nothing else. So a lot of countries utilize that book because that’s all they had. They could see the tide turning from this sort of very narrow minded interrogation stance within Europe to more an open minded, ethical, effective interviewing model. They can see that tide turning. And that’s what’s changed in 25 years within the suspect world is a real shift, but not all countries as we know.  

Børge Hansen 

Exactly. So, you know, we’ve already talked to Ivar Falsing and Asbjørn Rachlew, they took their inspiration out of some of early work from the UK into Norway. And then there is spreading around to some parts of the world, but not everywhere. Why do think that is? You know, it’s not picked up by everyone. 

Becky Milne 

It’s not picked up by everyone. I think some countries just don’t know that it exists. So I think it’s a lack of understanding that there is this whole new world. You know, I go around the world talking to various countries as does Ivar and Asbjørn. And sometimes we all do it together, which is great fun, as you can imagine. And so I think some countries are just enlightened. You know, this whole new world has opened up. 

However, it is a hard change because changing is not just changing the model. It’s not just changing training packages. It’s training, changing mindsets and trying to change the hearts and minds and the mindsets. It’s a big ship to turn.  

Børge Hansen 

Would you say it’s counterintuitive from a human nature point of view in when we talk with other people? It seemed to me that we so often get into a bias or confirmation bias. We think we have a solve the thing. As humans, we want to jump to conclusions because that’s easiest.  

Becky Milne 

We like to be right. And human beings like to be right. There’s a number of things going on, I think, within the world of investigation and interviewing. I think, first of all, if you look at communication, the basic communication skills, of course, there are cultural differences on top, but basic memory, basic communication that our everyday conversation skills is we overtalk, we interrupt, we’ve both done that with each other because we get on and we know each other, Børge, and therefore we have rapport, right? And we know rapport is the heart of good interviewing. And if you use your everyday conversational skills, which is using leading questions, closed questions, in fact, if I said to you know, did you have a good holiday? You know, and I know that I don’t want “War and peace”. You know, I just want: “Yes, it was great”. You know, these conversational rules, these basic conversational rules do not fit in an investigative interviewing context. That’s the problem. So in the investigative interviewing world, we need police officers to be open, open with regarding their conversational skills, you know, allowing people to run for 45, 50 hours. 

In the, you know, the adult witness world, which is not, it’s not a conversation. We said it was a conversation of purpose. It’s actually not, you know, in the adult witness world, primarily it’s a one way flow, which goes against all our rules and regulations. So there’s a whole problem of it’s actually going against the curve of everyday conversation. So therefore we need good training. We also need techniques for the police such as the cognitive interview, that’s what it’s all about, to explain to general public to basically go against their everyday conversational rules. But because we’re teaching police officers to go against it, they then have to also have a lot of refresher training. So that’s costly. So you’ve got that going on. And we know work that Laurence Alison’s also done. We all know that to get transference into the workplace, you need a lot of practice, practice, practice in small groups. So it costs money, time, energy, you know, it’s very costly. It’s not easy and it’s costly. Yeah. So that’s the one side. The other side is your decision-making. And so the more the brain is overloaded, the more the brain will use shortcuts. Now we just talked about that interviewing is very difficult. So you have that real cognitive overload of the brain and the more it’s overloaded, therefore the more likely you’re gonna be biased. And that’s where your world hits technology. And that’s where tech should be able to free up some of that cognitive load of an interviewer. 

And you know, someone says, what is, you know, when we do gigs in new countries, you know, what is the one thing you should change? And I say, start recording. Yeah. Start using technology. Not only for transparency in the process and therefore you can make sure it is fair, et cetera, and human rights angle, but from a psychologist perspective to free up the cognitive load of the interview. And that’s key. 

You know, and we can understand then what’s happened in that interaction. So we can then see what’s going wrong. We can then feed that into training. There’s a whole range of reasons that why we need to record. And for me, that’s your first message. Just start recording these interactions. And the majority of countries around the world do not. And that is scary. We’ve done it since 1984 with our suspect interviews. It’s more complicated with our witness interviews in the UK. 

Børge Hansen 

But that brings me on another topic, which I think is near and dear to you. There’s disciplines around, you know, suspect interviews and how you work on that. But you’ve chosen vulnerable witnesses as your primary focus, at least lately. Why did you go that route?  

Becky Milne 

And one, that was my PhD with Ray, actually. That’s where I started with children. But also I’ve done a lot of work more recently with adults in terror attacks. I’ve worked as an advisor to the United Kingdom counter-terrorism team on terror attacks since 2017 and other cases. And I’ve also been part of giving advice to war crimes teams across the globe. And so one key question is what is vulnerability? We keep using this I mean, there is no universal definition of vulnerability. It’s really difficult. I mean, that’s a PhD in itself. What is vulnerability? So for me, when we start looking at that big question of what vulnerability is, you know, have what we call internal vulnerability, who you are. So, you know, when you say to the general public who’s vulnerable, of course they’ll say children, older adults, people, you know, have some form of mental disorder, you know, they’re the internal vulnerabilities. 

So of course we need to, and we know the model of interviewing and to get accurate reliable information from people within that sphere, we have to be even more careful of how we gather that information to make informed decisions. And therefore it has to be a transparent process. And we’ve had that with our children since 1989 in the UK. That’s key. But then you also have external vulnerability. So that is the circumstance you might have been thrown into, whether that’s a sexual offense, and that is something I’m really focusing on at the moment, or whether that is because of a terror attack. And merrily, you’re not targeted wrong place, wrong time, but you’re still part of a trauma or even a disaster, right? So trauma externally will still impact. And our emergency responders themselves are part of that. And for me, one of my students worked looking at how we responded to the terror attack in Norway. Patrick Risen’s work looked at how the police officers managed trauma and his amazing work was fed straight into the work of the United Kingdom counterterrorism. It’s country to country learning, it’s amazing. And they even read some of his papers before they did some of their interviews. I mean, that’s impact, know, learning from, you know, an awful situation, from one author to another. And I’m going over to Australia actually in August and they’ve obviously just had one, haven’t they?  

And so it looks like I might be having meetings about what we’ve created here. It’s called WISCI. I tried to put gin in there Børge, but no. And when I saw you in London, we’d just been selling WISCI to the Irish and the Irish embassy. And WISCI is a framework which is witness, interview strategies for critical incidents. It’s the start of how to triage mass witnesses.  

And so for me, vulnerability comes from a whole host of internal and external factors and the balance in all these cases, whether it’s a victim of war crimes, whether it’s a sexual offense victim, our investigation of sexual offenses in the UK is not great. 

You know, I think the last figure was around 2%, you know, and we’ve luckily had someone called Betsy Stanko, an amazing professor leading this Operation Soteria which has been a massive, massive initiative in the UK with lots of wonderful people working on it, all trying to increase the investigation of sexual offences in the UK. I’ve had a little part of that by working with Patrick Tidmarsh, and we’ve been morphing the whole story approach that he works with the ECI, the Enhanced Cognitive Interview, and we have just come up with a new model of interviewing together, collective, both of us, and of how to interview sexual offence victims to try and improve that balance between getting accurate, reliable information to make an informed decision, but in a trauma -informed approach. And that balance is really difficult sometimes to forge. You’re dealing with psychological complex matters.  

Børge Hansen 

So how do you train people? in the UK you call this achieving best evidence, right?  

Becky Milne 

We do. I’ve been part of, yeah, achieving best evidence is based on research. It’s been written over the years by a multitude of people. 

Initially was Ray, Ray wrote the memorandum of practice, which is just for children and child abuse cases. And then there was a big campaign and it was a speaking up for justice report saying why just children allowed a visual recording interview or evidence in chief. And that widened the loop to have people with learning disability, mental disorder, physical disability and children up to the age of 18 allowed a visually recorded interview as their evidence in chief. 

And that was a real big important initiative. But suddenly it’s like, whoa, these interviews are open to public scrutiny. These interviews are high. They need people are highly skilled. And hence my PhD was starting to look at that world. And it’s, it’s a difficult task because you’ve got trauma, you’ve got vulnerability. And also even today, you know, there’s discussion in the UK about what this visually recorded interview should look like. 

And I know not everyone’s happy with that product. And the reason why not everyone’s happy is this product, which is one product. So you basically interview a vulnerable group and that is their evidence in chief in our courts. That product has to serve a multitude of needs. And I put this to people the other day and they said, right, need to write that down. And this is again, it’s finding this balance of, so first of all, this product, yeah, which we obviously record, has to serve the memory need. And what I mean the memory need, the model that elicits it, which is in achieving best evidence, has to have accurate, reliable information to make an informed decision. And we know through lab research and lots of research, I’m an expert witness, that if you follow this model, you’re going to get reliable information, which we can make an informed decision on. So this product has to serve the memory need. It also has to serve the victim need, has to be a way that we don’t ransack people’s memories and re-traumatize them. So it has to be trauma informed. Okay. So these are two things and that’s primarily what achieving best evidence focused on the memory and the trauma.  

And the trauma has come over time when we’ve learned more and more about what trauma is and how to approach it. Then it also has to serve the police needs. Police officers are decision makers. So, and they’re also gatekeepers. So it has to serve a police decision -making need. Then we have our Crown Prosecution Service in the UK. It has to serve their need and their need as decision-makers prior to court. Do we take it to court or not? 

But also if they decide that they should go to a court, it then has to serve as something that CPS believes is a good product for them. This is where the disconnect is, has been, and it’s not solved, but then it also has to serve a jury needs in the UK. There’s a lot going into this bag here now, right? In this one interview. 

You know, and can we have a one size fits all approach? I think we can, but it’s difficult. But also we’ve got to think about is at the moment, people don’t understand each other’s roles. So people seem to be just shifting blame may be the wrong word, but people who are debating what this should look at are looking: well, me as a prosecutor need this, right? Please go me as a police officer need this without actually thinking about that this product needs to serve a multitude of people. Let’s look at everyone’s viewpoint.  

Børge Hansen 

Proper training, understanding of the various stakeholders, but also proper preparations.  

Becky Milne 

Planning and prep, of course, Børge and it all comes down to planning and prep and needs assessment of the individual. The victim and the case and where we’re going with it is really key because as we keep saying, it’s a bloody difficult task. And what’s scary is most people around the world aren’t trained to do it. Which is scary.  

Børge Hansen 

How do we change the world?  

Becky Milne 

Luckily, we have the COST project. And with the Implemendez as work going on, which most of us are involved in, Dave Walsh is spearheading that very admirably. And I think there are now up to 47 countries involved in implementing the Mendez principles, you know, that is all about the international change, you know, from, and this is, know, when I work with countries, they normally ask me these two things. How can we get open-minded investigators who are competent communicators? And most countries want to have a justice system that service that need, whether it’s the prosecutors are doing most of the interviews that happens in some countries. I’ve got a judge, Mara, she’s a Brazilian judge working with me and she makes judicial decisions. So her PhD is looking at how do we make effective judicial decisions in her Brazilian justice system, again, with child interviews. So it’s really important, I think for us to look at each country in context because each country will have different issues too. They can learn from us in the UK and hopefully overcome 10 years by not going down that rabbit hole. But it has to be in their own cultural context. 

Børge Hansen 

30 years later, we now are launching the UN manual, the Mendes Principles coming along, some 40 countries participating, it’s starting to, you know, become a movement here.  

Becky Milne 

It is. And, you know, that’s one thing of having lots of PhD children. And they spread the word, you know, and then they also have, have some of them will go on and have PhD students themselves. So I think it’s really important educating the policing world. Cause Ivar and Asbjørn, they came over to do their masters and went on to do PhDs and they have made great waves in Norway. 

I’ve been lucky because I created, you know, I was part of running that first ever police degree. And so I’ve worked with amazing practitioners. you know, they learn a little bit from me. I learn a lot from them and every day is a school day, Børge, every day. And the day I don’t learn is the day I die, you know? I love it.  

Børge Hansen 

So what’s your learning plan going forward then? What is the future? Where are you aiming your sights on?  

Becky Milne 

Yeah, I know. As everyone says, I’ve got to learn to say no, because I say yes to too many things, because I get so excited about too many projects. So one is, you know, doing whatever I can for the UN and Implemendez and working hopefully more with the anti-torture committee, et cetera. I’d love to work more and more in that area. 

I’ve been a single parent, my son is now in his 20s, so I have more free time, as in to move rather than thinking, right, okay, I’ve been asked to go here as a single parent, I’ve always had to have that in mind. So I’d love to work more and do a lot of the work we’ve learned on the war crimes team. There’s been a lot of learning over the last five years. That’s sort of one area is the war crimes.   

Børge Hansen 

Yeah, it becomes more and more relevant to work around.  

Becky Milne 

Wish I wasn’t needed in that sphere. I wish I wasn’t needed. You know, and that’s the thing as a researcher, you’re looking for the research gap, you’re always looking for where’s the research gap. And there’s a big gap in what we know about dealing with victims of war crimes. And unfortunately, there’s a massive gap. And unfortunately, that needs filling. So that’s one area sexual offences is another one, we just don’t get it right. 

And we need to get it right for victims going forward, men and women, really important. But also the sort of another area is practitioners themselves. I’ve seen so many practitioners in the terror attacks who in many countries who have seen awful things and I know it’s part of their job, but no one expects to see the trauma in these tests above and beyond. That’s why they call it critical incident, you know, it’s difficult to prepare them for that. And they need to have proper, we need resilience and there is training of resilience. But most of these are frontline officers. They’re new in service. They’re fresh out of the box, a lot of them. And we need to deal with them properly. And in the past, they’ve been told to write their own statements. And for me, that’s not good enough. They need to properly cognitively process their own trauma. And, in the UK, that’s what we’ve been focusing on as well is part of our triaging mass witnesses. We also put into that the frontline responders too. and you know, I’m shying away, say, please, they’re human beings too. And then you don’t get them to write their own statements. You know, this is just not good enough practice. 

And unfortunately that happens too many times across the globe. These are people they are meant to be helping us. Let us help them too. So for me, that’s another message is we need to look after our frontline too. They’re protecting us. We need to protect them to enable them to protect us. At the moment, I don’t think that’s been done enough. So that’s another one. That’s another one of mine. So at the moment, those are the sort of the key areas, I think.  

Børge Hansen 

So even though, you know, what we talk about here is professionalism, I can see in your eyes when you talk, it’s more than professionalism. This is a passion. It’s a passion project for you.  

Becky Milne 

It is. And people say, will you ever retire? And I’m hoping I’d be like my mentor, my dad number two. I hope I’ll be in that privileged position that I can do that too. And as I said, every day’s a school day and it does it. Seeing the legacy coming through, you know, and it is thank goodness. You know, there was a handful of us initially and now the world. 

It’s growing and growing the world of investigative interviewing, which is just brilliant. And when we were in Combra recently as part of Implemendez know, me and Ray were both there looking at each other and it’s just so nice before we could count us on the hand. And now, you know, it’s a room full of people all excited about implementing Mendez princliples. 

It’s so inspiring. It’s lovely. It just think the family of people working on and researching investigative interviewing is growing rapidly. Yeah. And it is a family. And I think, you know that. So you’ve been part of it as well. And we’ve worked with you for a while. And you know, it’s, it is a family, 

Børge Hansen 

It’s a good point to end this conversation. I can feel the energy flowing through the computer even if you are in remote locations, it’s always a treat talking to you and the passion projects that you have is changing the world. So thank you for that.  

Becky Milne 

And thank you for your time.