Transcript

Ivar Fahsing  

Welcome to the podcast, Fanny Aboagye. You are currently the Assistant Commissioner of the Ghana Police Force. But this week we are together here in New York on the UN COPS High-Level Meeting for the event of launching the UN manual on investigative interviewing. And from your perspective, from your background, position and experience, what would you say are the reasons why such a manual is needed? 

Fanny Aboagye 

Thank you very much, Ivar. We are here in New York to launch the UN Manual on Investigative Interviewing. I think this manual is very necessary at this time because for several years, I believe, investigators, their experiences, have taken a lot of things for granted. And so, most of our investigations, all our interviews are done to obtain confessions from our interviewees. 

The manual brings out the human rights aspects of investigative interviewing, which means accurate information, not to use any coercive method to obtain this information. 

My first entry into the police, the question that was posed by our first lecturer: how do you obtain accurate information? And the answers that came out were as good as you can imagine. I mean, from coercive methods, unethical methods. That was the first time that I was actually introduced to ethical interviewing. And so when I had the opportunity working in New York to be part of this group of people to develop this manual, I thought the manual has come at the right time. 

There’s nothing like too late. It has actually come to smoothing the way investigators do interviews. In saying that, what I mean is sometimes you think you are doing the right thing, you know, until you are introduced to something else. Then you know that you can modify your way of working to be able to, you know, give proper justice to every investigation that you are doing. So I think this manual actually fills that gap. 

When you read it looks quite familiar. The methods in it looks quite familiar, but when you read it again and again and again, you realise that it provides some additional areas of interviewing that you might not have thought about. So the manual actually is a good one. 

It came the right time of our career as police officers. The new officers coming in as investigators will have to do the right thing from now. And so I think that’s what this manual helps us to achieve.  

Ivar Fahsing 

Absolutely. In many ways, what I think at least is that we are, as police officers, not really taught from the beginning how different an interview is from a normal conversation. So it’s kind of, you think you intuitively can interview because you’re able to speak or talk and as I think the manual shows that no, the purpose of a normal conversation is not to gather accurate and reliable information is mainly to be part of a social play. You don’t really want the whole story, you don’t want all the details, that’s breaching social codes. You just want the headlines and then move on. Exactly the opposite of what you really want in an interview. If you came back from vacation or a weekend, if someone asks you to start from the time you left home and include all details until you return, you know, it will be a tremendous breach of social codes and anything. So this is, I think, also so important to remind ourselves as professionals that it’s actually a very different purpose and that requires for different methods as well. 

Although what you are saying, Fanny, is that this is a much needed instrument now for building that awareness and skill base early on, as far as I understand, this is still quite far from reality in most of the countries, not only in Africa, but also in Europe, of countries that actually have been going through a process of change. And when I say change, I mean that you deliberately have to leave behind what you used to do and you have to know why. And then deliberately take in something different because you think that brings you closer to where you should be. So that deliberate shift also recognized on the top level in your organization because it has to be facilitated by resources, by training and by mindset cultures, I guess. So could you say something about what that looks like in Ghana or in Western Africa as far as you know when it comes to that process of change? 

Fanny Aboagye 

Definitely change is always a very difficult thing, especially when people are very used to their organizational culture. Yeah, but change can happen when you know where you want to be. Talking about Ghana and about the police, our vision is to become a world-class policing, with respect to human rights So this becomes where we want to be. Where we are now is very difficult to determine. 

So some are a little ahead of others. And so we need to kind of reach those who are a little behind, closer to those who have actually advanced in investigative interviewing. I think basically this has to be part of our training curriculum, right from the basic training in our academies, because in all of this, the academy is where we do training for our very senior officers, yeah? But in all of this, because of oversights, responsibilities. Even the senior officers need to understand the process so that they can have good oversight over our younger officers. So I think to get to be a world-class policing as our vision says, it is important that some of this change is embraced and is promoted, you know, because if we don’t, if we don’t even accept that we have to change, then we will not get anywhere. So we have to embrace this in totality. I will say that coming a good step in the right direction. Because from here, I’m going to introduce the manual to Director General CID so that because investigators mostly do the interviewing right so that they can also incorporate it into their detective training school. So in all the different levels the basic training school, the detective training school, the police academy, the command and staff college, all of these different levels have different impacts when it comes to interviewing. So I believe Ghana is doing what we are doing because that’s the knowledge that we have now. That is what we know. I mean, that is the experience that has been gotten over the years. But I know that if we want to really reach our objective of being a world-class policing, then we have to be fine police officers, you know, excelling in every area of our work and making sure that when you present a case to court, you have done the right thing, you know, and that will actually give us, you know, the convictions that we want from the courts. Maybe not that much, but then you know that you have gone through the right steps and this is what the manual provides for us. So I think Ghana is on course and we are still committed to you know gradually shaping our officers and our thinking you know and not relaxing into the Ghana culture. This is how we do it you know and not wanting to change. This manual is a good manual and it will go a long way to help the service. 

Ivar Fahsing 

This is the first documentation of a true global standard. This is what we should aim for. And it’s sometimes much easier to find that outside because then you probably have less discussion in the inside, well, what is really the standard. Sometimes that’s really hard to carry that message inside any organization, no matter your position. Because, as you said, people basically don’t want to change. We are just built that way, that why can’t I just go on? Do you mean I’m not good enough for these kind of typical human things. That change is not that easy. So I think it’s really interesting to hear what you say about the importance of management, oversight, and also to communicate expectations and future directions. So that’s, I think it shows deep insight, I think, in what is necessary to foster these changes. There are early research from the early 90s in England where they actually started to see what creates a positive change in the rescue Investigative interviewing and they early on found that the police districts that didn’t involve the top level management in this change process didn’t prosper. 

You know, speaking from a Ghana perspective, but I guess also as having spent a lifetime in policing in Western Africa, what would you say is the situation around you? You see a similar development in other African countries, or is this something that mainly is going on in your own country? 

Fanny Aboagye 

Policing is almost the same when two police officers from different countries meet. You see, they are very like-minded when it comes to how we work. I will be more than certain to say that it’s almost the same for people in my sub-regions. Of course, I have the honor to also facilitate some of the courses at Kofi Annan International Peacekeeping Training, where officers are drawn from across the West Africa region and we like collaborative policing where we have all these officers to share their experiences from across their countries. And in all honesty, it comes almost to the same way of doing things. With respect to the manual, I believe that there should be like an implementation phase of this manual to reach as many countries and continents as possible. I’m saying this because when you have something that’s so beneficial to you, it shouldn’t happen that other countries around you do not have same methodology. And so I’m thinking, like, if there would be a way to have maybe trainings. And I mean, we have a lot of Peacekeeping centers around West Africa and these institutions can be used, they can facilitate the sharing of this knowledge to a much wider countries in the region. So I think if the organizers or those who started to do this can think about that. Because I think at the end of the day, what we want to really achieve is to have a non-coercive process when it comes to interviewing. 

When you go to peacekeeping missions, we have people from all over the world coming into these missions and to perform their police roles in these missions. If we are not like -minded, we ourselves will be a problem even in the mission. But if we are like-minded and we come there, then we complement each other. You know, there may be people who will be very good at training, there may be people who will be very good at interviewing, but then we can complement each other. They will not be leaving anybody behind. Then the country that we are serving can benefit from these experiences. So I think when I have to think about the sub-region, I believe we are all on the page where we need to kind of correct a lot of things around interviewing. And so a follow-up phase to reach as many as we can will be helpful for even my region, West Africa. 

Ivar Fahsing 

I really agree with your reflections that police officers and maybe even detectives around the world are quite similar. I definitely share that reflection. I’ve also been fortunate enough to do investigations almost everywhere in the world during my time as a detective. You meet people that have had the same position as yourself over time and you feel… It’s so interesting that you have exactly the same focus. 

What is your background and how did you end up in this position? 

Fanny Aboagye  

I’m an assistant commissioner of police now. Currently, I’m the divisional commander for Western North region. When it says that you are a divisional commander, it means that you have a lot of districts and stations under you and you are responsible for the operation, administrative and everything, you know, for that division. 

My story in police is quite interesting because I came into the police as a professional. My university education was in estate management. So we were recruited as estate officers from the university into the police. And then I learned about peacekeeping, and so my then supervisor and boss, agreed and and so we did the UN exam and went to East Timur in 2002. And that changed my perspective on policing, especially because it was a conflict zone and it was an executive mandate, which means that we need to be police officers in that mission. It trained me to use the weapon, to do investigations, and to do everything about policing in that mission. 

So I have had the opportunity of learning so much about peacekeeping. Peacekeeping, security, safety, and all these different complex contests. That has actually equipped me in many, many diverse, you know, contests because like in mission, you know, you can start from something small and then generate into, much more complex situation. And when you are working in such fields, you are able to adjust to the different contests that you come into. 

My current post was in January this year. That’s when I was transferred to my current division. And I mean, so far, I would say that it’s working well there. Because I have accumulated all these experiences before, it’s quite easy to manage the division. 

We’re actually doing our best to bring policing to the doorsteps of people and not to abuse the privileges that comes with the work because sometimes when you are in uniform, you seem to be like a different person. So we are trying to get more contacts with our clients and educating them as to what they have to do when they have all these conflicts. We are also trying to do proper investigations. 

I’m still, I mean, forging forward in what I do and making sure that everywhere that I am, I bring impact to both the officers and even the clients that we meet, you know, and ensure that policing is not… so to say, the way people look at them, like very afraid of them, but to bring them so close to the people that they know that police are the friends of the people. 

Ivar Fahsing 

That’s so fascinating. What strikes me, Fanny, that I never thought about this in this way before until I hear your story, is that what we also in Norway call peacekeeping policing is actually very transformational work. 

You are coming into areas that are sometimes scattered of any structure and governance and security and you have to start to build something and transform. So I think your background there is so important and the skills you have and the things you’ve seen not only in your own region but around the world. It must be a tremendous strength in your position it also gives you a lens where you can analyze where are we actually, what should be expected, what is policing actually all about. 

Really inspirational to hear that, yourself as a female officer, what is the gender rate at the time?  

Fanny Aboagye 

I think we are now about 27 % of our male counterparts. So, I mean, in Ghana we have quite a high number of female offices. The majority of course are junior officers, but even the senior core, we should probably be like 15-17 percent of the senior core. So that’s quite encouraging and junior offices look up to us so much. 

It’s quite encouraging and I mean I also like the fact that our current administration is sending us out onto the field. I mean it shows that the operational thing of policing is not only for the men and they are introducing a lot of senior officers in the regions which is quite… It’s quite good and quite interesting because like… Maybe previously, years, years ago, the very senior officer, because there were so few, we’re all concentrated at the headquarters, you know, and really not that out. So this has actually given us an opportunity to prove ourselves as females and to do the work. Let also the people see us as equal. 

Like we talked about change before, there’s always… that difficulty changing but once you have your authorities or the senior officers going that direction they are able to move everybody into that direction and so I think females are doing quite well in Ghana now. We have a lot of senior female senior police officers very intelligent, hard-working offices and we are all doing our bit to help the service and to contribute our quota to the service.  

Ivar Fahsing 

I’m sure you’re a fantastic role model and I want to share with you, because I think also there is a gender issue in the transformation towards investigative interviewing, as you said yourself, we are trying to move away from accusatory, confession-oriented styles that very often is linked to kind of a macho way of policing, that way you’re being intimidating, it comes less natural to women. 

And I think the non-confrontational, communicative, active listening way is at least something that we saw in Norway 20-25 years ago, came much more natural.  

Fanny Aboagye 

For women.  

Ivar Fahsing 

For women. So I have to say that probably in Norway now you see that the top level, the gold level of interviewers in our most profiled cases are a majority of women. Not only on the leadership positions, but also in the operational interview detectives. And it’s a very challenging job to go into that room and see what information you can bring out with relevance in a professional way. It’s a core task in any high-level investigation, and it’s all resting on the shoulders of professional women. 

I think also just the dynamics, because after all, at least in many of the most serious crimes, there’s no secret that most of the perpetrators are men. So the risk of getting a cockfight inside that interview room is actually much less if you have a female interviewer. 

That’s at least our experience. And I think it’s under-communicated, this gender issue in the transformation towards investigative interviewing. I think it’s very important, not only for the production of good interviews, but for the transformation of the culture around it.  

Fanny Aboagye 

Yeah, absolutely. I agree. 

 Ivar Fahsing 

Well, before we round off, there is one more question I would like to ask you. If you look around the world now, it’s not everything that we’re seeing is going the right way. We have conflicts, we also have political developments that are not very optimistic. 

Nevertheless, we are promoting a more human rights-based way of interviewing in this hostile world. And I guess some people would call our efforts a bit naive and over optimistic. But still, you seem to believe in it and fight for. What do you think about your future?  

Fanny Aboagye 

I know what you’re saying and it’s a very difficult situation that we have now because there’s not too much transparency in the world now makes it… It’s very difficult to operate the context that you have because your bosses are receiving instructions in a direction that probably favors the government or the political space and that information is not a must-know. 

So sometimes you wonder why you are pushing a good agenda that is not being embraced at the top. Because the top itself is also struggling to find their ground. We are not naive. I think that what this manual provides is knowledge, awareness and great skill. Maybe it doesn’t move as fast as we wanted for obvious reasons, you know, for the political space, for… Some people are even adamant to change. Some of our authorities, they just don’t like it. This is what is giving us a good face, getting more convictions, and you know, ticking the box. You know how many people were you able to prosecute last, you know, so all of these things are going to hinder the first progress or the first implementation of the tenets of this manual. 

That’s not naive. And so like I said before, our task is to make sure that at least the middle management, the supervisors, grab this, embrace this. And then how that will move up the ladder, but we are also not naive about some of it almost looks like an impossibility, but I believe that investigative interviewing is not done at that top hierarchy. It’s done mostly in the middle you know. And so that’s our space. 

And we have to make sure that our space is good, our space is intact, our space is not coercive. Eventually, this space is going to give a good light to the political space, right? I know it’s going to be difficult to just permeate the political space. But so far, if we are able to make sure that the policing space is good and intact, the government and all of those things will begin to appreciate, you know, what we do as police officers. But that’s really a very difficult context and scenario. 

Ivar Fahsing 

I completely agree and it’s so fundamental what you’re saying that policing space is about creating trust and which is absolutely the fundamental of our legitimacy as law enforcement officers if you don’t have that fundamental trust in your own population. 

How can you even do the job? That trust is created in those daily meetings. Every single day our officers meet some of their citizens. And how do you actually develop that meeting? How do you show that dignity? No matter how difficult this situation is, you stay professional and follow your methods and your ethical codes and it will take you a very long way. I think we’re talking about, like you say, the absolute core values of what policing is all about. So I obviously share your optimism, even in a bit dark period of the world, I think that makes it probably even more important that we fight for these fundamental principles of not only of policing but of human dignity.  

Fanny Aboagye 

Absolutely. 

Ivar Fahsing 

Well, but that, Fanny, I will not steal more of your precious time and I say thanks a lot for a really interesting conversation. I’ve learned a lot of you.  

Fanny Aboagye 

Same here.  

Ivar Fahsing 

And I wish you the best in your future mission. Thank you. And I hope we can cooperate.  

Fanny Aboagye 

Yes, most definitely. In the future.  

Ivar Fahsing 

Thank you so much.  

Fanny Aboagye 

Thanks a lot.